Lord of the Rings TV series

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Cyrus, Nov 4, 2017.

  1. Orphalesion

    Orphalesion Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Oh it definitely happens with Earendil in the published Silmarillion.

    There is an earlier version in the Book of Lost Tales where "Earendel" arrives in Kor too late, because the Elves already left to help the Noldor, against the will of the gods, and in that version he just wanders around the empty city.
    I'm glad Tolkien changed that, because him coming too late made Earendil's story pointless.

    The other thing I can think of could be one of those "dream" poems from the Adventures of Tom Bombadil? I know there's one where the narrator goes to an Aman-like place, but I can't remember what happens there.

    Tolkien was very clear that the Orcs were not supposed to be Germans, or Soviets, or any other comparison people asked about in letters.
    He admitted that before going to war he might have had ideas like that, but quickly became disillusioned with the horrors of war and the conduct of certain soldiers on both sides and, if I'm not mistaken, he said something about that there were "Orcish" people on both sides.

    Originally the Orcs were creations of Melkor (as were the Dwarves!) but later Tolkien decided that evil should be unable to create true life, only corrupt it, and so the version with the corrupted Elves came about.
    Also around the time he wrote the Lord of the Rings Tolkien drifted away from the idea of the Orcs being corrupted Elves and favoured the idea of them being humans who fell under extreme corruption (it can already be noticed in the LotR itself, where Ghan-buri-Ghan's people (who otherwise are among the Free people) are said to have an "Orc-like" laughter.
    The problem he faced here (and why Christopher Tolkien didn't include that into the Silmarillion) is that he never came up with a good explanation for the earlier Orcs that were present before humans awoke in Hildorien.
    He found several explanations:
    1) They were animals bred into the shape of humanoids and taught to imitate speech like parrots.
    2) They were automatons imbued with some of Morgoth's essence into a semblance of life and sapience
    3)They were corrupted Maiar taking physical bodies, and possibly their offspring
    4)There were no Orcs prior to the awakening of the first humans, instead in those days the Elves used "Yrch" to describe every kind of creature or phenomenon that scared them and later scribes got confused.
    5) All of the above.

    But he never settled on an explanation for the pre-human Orcs, so Christopher Tolkien just went with the "they're corrupted Elves" version
     
  2. Jedi Marso

    Jedi Marso Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The elves were the Firstborn children- Melkor / Morgoth would logically have chosen them to corrupt into orcs, rather than men, who were less beautiful, less hardy, and mortal. And, orcs appeared in the world before men. Ergo, they were created from the elves.
     
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  3. Asbo Zaprudder

    Asbo Zaprudder Admiral Admiral

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    Eru Ilúvatar created Valar, Maiar, Elves and Men. The Valar Aulë created the Dwarves and his wife Yavanna created the Ents but they were both among the good Valar. In Peter Jackson's The Fellowship of the Ring, Saruman raises an army of Uruk-hai from clay - akin to golems in Jewish legend or Adam in the Book of Genesis. Saruman is an Istari - one of the Maiar - so if even he can shape life from inanimate matter, I can't really see why one of the greatest of the Valar, Melkor, equal to Manwë in power, couldn't. It would make sense that the products of his efforts, driven by malevolence, would themselves be corrupted and evil. Obviously, the movie version is not canonical but it's the way I make sense of how Orcs and similar creature are created. Otherwise, you've got to imagine Orc/Goblin/Troll etc. families (much like in World of Warcraft) which humanises them too much for my taste. Fine for WoW itself, of course.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2022
  4. Orphalesion

    Orphalesion Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Not quite.
    You are missing something very important with your example of Aule and Yavanna and the Dwarves/Ents; the Valar might be create life (Yavanna created most plants and animals) but they are NOT capable of creating souls, and in Tolkien's world you need a soul for sapience and true language and creating settlements and weapons and all of that.
    Aule might have carved the first Dwarves...but in the chapter of the Silmarillion Eru steps in and makes it clear to Aule that the Dwarves are only automations imbued with a semblance or even mockery of life by Aule's will and only following his commands (like one of the variant of pre-human orcs i meantioned later). Aule then is ready to destroy the Dwarves because by even trying to create sapient life he has done a great sin. And that is when Eru, touched by Aule's sacrifice, incarnates souls into the Dwarf bodies.
    Later on Yavanna learns of the Dwarves and is dismayed because all she creates, especially trees, who take long to grow, but are felled swiftly, only exists for the benefit of the Children of Eru she (and Manwe) pray to Eru and he "sends spirits from far away" to inhabit some of the trees and of the eagles.
    So even if Aule designed the Dwarves and Yavanna wished for the Ents, it was Eru who created their souls.

    Also when does Saruman ever "shape life out of inanimate matter"? Never. And the movies are irrelevant.

    Morgoth lost the power to create original things when he fell to evil (read the history of Middle Earth books,if you don't believe me, it's all in there) after that he was only able to corrupt and misshape begins and things that already existed.
    The earlier concept of the Dwarves being his creation (and later redeemed) was rejected because of that.

    And as to them having "families". In a letter Tolkien said that Orc women existed, we just never got to see any, because they were in settlements and encampments far away from where the story took place.
    We never get to see any Dwarf women either, but one is mentioned in the

    Not according to the last word by Tolkien. I think it was because he later had the concept of the Elves as being innocent of original sin (unlike the humans) and that they can't be corrupted that much, at least not as that large a number. Humans on the other hand had their sin-fall during the very beginning of their existence and opened themselves up for corruption (that's also when old age came to humans)
    Plus it opens up the problems that Orcs would be immortal, and that they somehow are able to reproduce much faster than Elves ever were.
    I think his later idea of humans makes a lot more sense. Plus it was his last word on the topic.
    So nothing "ergo"
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2022
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  5. Asbo Zaprudder

    Asbo Zaprudder Admiral Admiral

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    Yeah, my head canon version of how the races in Middle-earth came to be is irrelevant. I prefer it to Tolkien's version /versions but mine is still wrong. Tolkien did write about Orcs burrowing out of the ground like maggots. Perhaps that's where Peter Jackson got the notion for his movie where Saruman creates his version of Uruks.
     
  6. Jedi Marso

    Jedi Marso Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I've read the Silmarillion a bunch of times and I do not remember ever once hearing the idea of 'original sin' either for elves or men. Humans were created mortal, the Second Born children of Eru, and this mortality was alternately referred to as 'The Doom of Men' and also as a gift, because after death men moved on to 'something else' which was left undefined, while elves who suffered mortal death were held in Arda in the Halls of Mandos. Even the Valar are confined to Arda, unable to depart while the world abides.

    Reference: https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Gift_of_Men

    Not a problem if orcs are a 'corruption' of elves. They are simply mortal, and nowhere does Tolkien ever imply otherwise.

    His 'last word' where?
     
  7. Commander Troi

    Commander Troi Quoter of Quotes Premium Member

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    What annoys you about the dwarves?

    We should talk classic mythological literature sometime! It's been ages since I read any of this stuff, but I've always been about The Heroes. :)
     
  8. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Their creation story is not my favorite. I find it strange.
    Any time..I probably read more than any 7th grade student I knew. I watched the ABC miniseries too. Quite brutal.
     
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  9. Asbo Zaprudder

    Asbo Zaprudder Admiral Admiral

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    Some of the latest speculation I've read is that the newly invented character Halbrand is Sauron in human disguise. He has an affair with Galadriel, who believes Celeborn has died, fathering Celebrian. Halbrand turns evil again because Galadriel rejects him when Celeborn turns up alive.

    I hope none of that turns out to be true. However, if any of it is true, it would make the show very easy for me to ignore in its entirety.
     
  10. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Soap opera!
     
  11. The Nth Doctor

    The Nth Doctor Infinite Possibilities... Premium Member

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    Yeah, I really hope that's not true, too. Completely unnecessary drama and quite un-Tolkien.
     
  12. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Sounds like click bait nonsense.
     
  13. Asbo Zaprudder

    Asbo Zaprudder Admiral Admiral

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    IIRC, in the books Galadriel senses Annatar is up to no good immediately. There is a suggestion that Amazon aren't allowed to use the name Annatar because it's not in the LotR appendices. The forging of the rings is supposedly not even happening in the first season so it might be take quite a few episodes before some of the wilder theories are confirmed or refuted.
     
  14. Jedman67

    Jedman67 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I think Elrond and Galadriel distrusted Annatar, but didn't suspect he was actually Sauron. Or maybe it was Cirdan and Galadriel.

    Being that Amazon paid half a billion to use the rights, I can't imagine they wouldn't get permission to use Annatar if they wanted it. And with Christopher no longer alive, the current rights holders may be a little more flexible
     
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  15. Skywalker

    Skywalker Admiral Admiral

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    I've read that the production has requested--and been granted--access to select things found in The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales, and the name Annatar is found in both of those. (Along with some other interesting ideas that would be worth mining for the show.)

    Though I don't know if those rumors were actually accurate, to be fair.
     
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  16. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Speaking of which...

    ...when is this IP finally going to enter the public domain?
     
  17. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Just use Dungeons and Dragons ;)
     
  18. Asbo Zaprudder

    Asbo Zaprudder Admiral Admiral

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    It depends on the country. JRRT's works will enter the public domain in Canada next year (2023) but not in the UK, US, or Europe until 2043. For any work with Christopher Tolkien as the author (such as The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales) I think it will be 2090 (2020 + 70 years). Of course, the law might change before then. Could Amazon have waited until next year and then produced the whole thing in Canada to save a whole lot of money? I don't know but I suspect lawyers will have told them not.
     
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  19. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Canada is kicking ass, as usual.
     
  20. danellis

    danellis Captain Captain

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    Yeah, authors' estates' arses, by the sound of things :vulcan:


    I'd assume that the rights in the US/UK/etc. would still hold, irrespective of where it was filmed; they might be able to film it in Canada, but still have to pay licensing etc. wherever it was "broadcast."

    dJE
     
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