• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Spoilers Lord of the Rings TV series

The elves were the Firstborn children- Melkor / Morgoth would logically have chosen them to corrupt into orcs, rather than men, who were less beautiful, less hardy, and mortal. And, orcs appeared in the world before men. Ergo, they were created from the elves.
 
Eru Ilúvatar created Valar, Maiar, Elves and Men. The Valar Aulë created the Dwarves and his wife Yavanna created the Ents but they were both among the good Valar. In Peter Jackson's The Fellowship of the Ring, Saruman raises an army of Uruk-hai from clay - akin to golems in Jewish legend or Adam in the Book of Genesis. Saruman is an Istari - one of the Maiar - so if even he can shape life from inanimate matter, I can't really see why one of the greatest of the Valar, Melkor, equal to Manwë in power, couldn't. It would make sense that the products of his efforts, driven by malevolence, would themselves be corrupted and evil. Obviously, the movie version is not canonical but it's the way I make sense of how Orcs and similar creature are created. Otherwise, you've got to imagine Orc/Goblin/Troll etc. families (much like in World of Warcraft) which humanises them too much for my taste. Fine for WoW itself, of course.
 
Last edited:
Eru Ilúvatar created Valar, Maiar, Elves and Men. The Valar Aulë created the Dwarves and his wife Yavanna created the Ents but they were both among the good Valar. In Peter Jackson's The Fellowship of the Ring, Saruman raises an army of Uruk-hai from clay - akin to golems in Jewish legend or Adam in the Book of Genesis. Saruman is an Istari - one of the Maiar - so if even he can shape life from inanimate matter, I can't really see why one of the greatest of the Valar, Melkor, equal to Manwë in power, couldn't. It would make sense that the products of his efforts, driven by malevolence, would themselves be corrupted and evil. Obviously, the movie version is not canonical but it's the way I make sense of how Orcs and similar creature are created. Otherwise, you've got to imagine Orc/Goblin/Troll etc. families (much like in World of Warcraft) which humanises them too much for my taste. Fine for WoW itself, of course.
Not quite.
You are missing something very important with your example of Aule and Yavanna and the Dwarves/Ents; the Valar might be create life (Yavanna created most plants and animals) but they are NOT capable of creating souls, and in Tolkien's world you need a soul for sapience and true language and creating settlements and weapons and all of that.
Aule might have carved the first Dwarves...but in the chapter of the Silmarillion Eru steps in and makes it clear to Aule that the Dwarves are only automations imbued with a semblance or even mockery of life by Aule's will and only following his commands (like one of the variant of pre-human orcs i meantioned later). Aule then is ready to destroy the Dwarves because by even trying to create sapient life he has done a great sin. And that is when Eru, touched by Aule's sacrifice, incarnates souls into the Dwarf bodies.
Later on Yavanna learns of the Dwarves and is dismayed because all she creates, especially trees, who take long to grow, but are felled swiftly, only exists for the benefit of the Children of Eru she (and Manwe) pray to Eru and he "sends spirits from far away" to inhabit some of the trees and of the eagles.
So even if Aule designed the Dwarves and Yavanna wished for the Ents, it was Eru who created their souls.

Also when does Saruman ever "shape life out of inanimate matter"? Never. And the movies are irrelevant.

Morgoth lost the power to create original things when he fell to evil (read the history of Middle Earth books,if you don't believe me, it's all in there) after that he was only able to corrupt and misshape begins and things that already existed.
The earlier concept of the Dwarves being his creation (and later redeemed) was rejected because of that.

And as to them having "families". In a letter Tolkien said that Orc women existed, we just never got to see any, because they were in settlements and encampments far away from where the story took place.
We never get to see any Dwarf women either, but one is mentioned in the

Ergo, they were created from the elves.
Not according to the last word by Tolkien. I think it was because he later had the concept of the Elves as being innocent of original sin (unlike the humans) and that they can't be corrupted that much, at least not as that large a number. Humans on the other hand had their sin-fall during the very beginning of their existence and opened themselves up for corruption (that's also when old age came to humans)
Plus it opens up the problems that Orcs would be immortal, and that they somehow are able to reproduce much faster than Elves ever were.
I think his later idea of humans makes a lot more sense. Plus it was his last word on the topic.
So nothing "ergo"
 
Last edited:
Yeah, my head canon version of how the races in Middle-earth came to be is irrelevant. I prefer it to Tolkien's version /versions but mine is still wrong. Tolkien did write about Orcs burrowing out of the ground like maggots. Perhaps that's where Peter Jackson got the notion for his movie where Saruman creates his version of Uruks.
 
Not according to the last word by Tolkien. I think it was because he later had the concept of the Elves as being innocent of original sin (unlike the humans) and that they can't be corrupted that much, at least not as that large a number. Humans on the other hand had their sin-fall during the very beginning of their existence and opened themselves up for corruption (that's also when old age came to humans)

I've read the Silmarillion a bunch of times and I do not remember ever once hearing the idea of 'original sin' either for elves or men. Humans were created mortal, the Second Born children of Eru, and this mortality was alternately referred to as 'The Doom of Men' and also as a gift, because after death men moved on to 'something else' which was left undefined, while elves who suffered mortal death were held in Arda in the Halls of Mandos. Even the Valar are confined to Arda, unable to depart while the world abides.

Reference: https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Gift_of_Men

lus it opens up the problems that Orcs would be immortal, and that they somehow are able to reproduce much faster than Elves ever were.

Not a problem if orcs are a 'corruption' of elves. They are simply mortal, and nowhere does Tolkien ever imply otherwise.

I think his later idea of humans makes a lot more sense. Plus it was his last word on the topic.
So nothing "ergo"

His 'last word' where?
 
Made perfect sense to me. And I need no deciphering. I read it and followed it, and studied Tolkien's letters and appendices. The only thing that annoys me is the dwarves.
What annoys you about the dwarves?

I've read the Odyssey, the Iliad, the Aeneid, The Death of Arthur, among others.
We should talk classic mythological literature sometime! It's been ages since I read any of this stuff, but I've always been about The Heroes. :)
 
What annoys you about the dwarves?
Their creation story is not my favorite. I find it strange.
We should talk classic mythological literature sometime! It's been ages since I read any of this stuff, but I've always been about The Heroes. :)
Any time..I probably read more than any 7th grade student I knew. I watched the ABC miniseries too. Quite brutal.
 
Some of the latest speculation I've read is that the newly invented character Halbrand is Sauron in human disguise. He has an affair with Galadriel, who believes Celeborn has died, fathering Celebrian. Halbrand turns evil again because Galadriel rejects him when Celeborn turns up alive.

I hope none of that turns out to be true. However, if any of it is true, it would make the show very easy for me to ignore in its entirety.
 
Some of the latest speculation I've read is that the newly invented character Halbrand is Sauron in human disguise. He has an affair with Galadriel, who believes Celeborn has died, fathering Celebrian. Halbrand turns evil again because Galadriel rejects him when Celeborn turns up alive.

I hope none of that turns out to be true. However, if any of it is true, it would make the show very easy for me to ignore in its entirety.
Yeah, I really hope that's not true, too. Completely unnecessary drama and quite un-Tolkien.
 
IIRC, in the books Galadriel senses Annatar is up to no good immediately. There is a suggestion that Amazon aren't allowed to use the name Annatar because it's not in the LotR appendices. The forging of the rings is supposedly not even happening in the first season so it might be take quite a few episodes before some of the wilder theories are confirmed or refuted.
 
IIRC, in the books Galadriel senses Annatar is up to no good immediately. There is a suggestion that Amazon aren't allowed to use the name Annatar because it's not in the LotR appendices. The forging of the rings is supposedly not even happening in the first season so it might be take quite a few episodes before some of the wilder theories are confirmed or refuted.
I think Elrond and Galadriel distrusted Annatar, but didn't suspect he was actually Sauron. Or maybe it was Cirdan and Galadriel.

Being that Amazon paid half a billion to use the rights, I can't imagine they wouldn't get permission to use Annatar if they wanted it. And with Christopher no longer alive, the current rights holders may be a little more flexible
 
I've read that the production has requested--and been granted--access to select things found in The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales, and the name Annatar is found in both of those. (Along with some other interesting ideas that would be worth mining for the show.)

Though I don't know if those rumors were actually accurate, to be fair.
 
It depends on the country. JRRT's works will enter the public domain in Canada next year (2023) but not in the UK, US, or Europe until 2043. For any work with Christopher Tolkien as the author (such as The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales) I think it will be 2090 (2020 + 70 years). Of course, the law might change before then. Could Amazon have waited until next year and then produced the whole thing in Canada to save a whole lot of money? I don't know but I suspect lawyers will have told them not.
 
Canada is kicking ass, as usual.
Yeah, authors' estates' arses, by the sound of things :vulcan:


It depends on the country. JRRT's works will enter the public domain in Canada next year (2023) but not in the UK, US, or Europe until 2043. For any work with Christopher Tolkien as the author (such as The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales) I think it will be 2090 (2020 + 70 years). Of course, the law might change before then. Could Amazon have waited until next year and then produced the whole thing in Canada to save a whole lot of money? I don't know but I suspect lawyers will have told them not.

I'd assume that the rights in the US/UK/etc. would still hold, irrespective of where it was filmed; they might be able to film it in Canada, but still have to pay licensing etc. wherever it was "broadcast."

dJE
 
Yeah, authors' estates' arses, by the sound of things :vulcan:

It is simply that I hold little love for the insanely long copyright duration in the states. Come to think of it, the collective of copyright laws as a whole is a real headcase.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top