There've been some glaring plot holes, sure, but I have faith.....
Lorca is a coward and murderer, how come he's a Starfleet Captain still??
- Thread starter Refuge
- Start date
There've been some glaring plot holes, sure, but I have faith.....
...of the heart?
(Yes, I know it was a gimme. I don't care.
)
(Yes, I know it was a gimme. I don't care.
)Suppose you read about a truck full of US Marines who got ambushed in Iraq...
Their commanding officer jumps out of the truck, and throws two grenades into the truck to save his men from being captured.
This is pretty much what Lorca did, and instead of doing what any military would do, even in a war, and put him before a court martial and ensure he never sees command again, Starfleet says: “No biggie! Here’s a command over our most sensitive new technology!”?!?
This show makes less and less sense!
Their commanding officer jumps out of the truck, and throws two grenades into the truck to save his men from being captured.
This is pretty much what Lorca did, and instead of doing what any military would do, even in a war, and put him before a court martial and ensure he never sees command again, Starfleet says: “No biggie! Here’s a command over our most sensitive new technology!”?!?
This show makes less and less sense!
Why is it such a hard concept to work out that there is more to this story than what we have been told?
Its pretty bloody obviously there is far more than whats being told.
How do you know that there is more to it? There's no guarantee.. We can only go by what we have been told, that's the way it works.
I dunno, with "gotcha" writing like this I think it's safer to assume they have more to the story.
I've seen so much television, I can't help but look at these shows as "the odds of this or that based on what I know about writers"
Really sucks the enjoyment out of watching but if I was a betting man, we're going to get the full story in some dramatic fashion
G
Gonzo
Guest
I think so to, I do hope the Klingons speak English in it though, not sure I can stand any more monologues of death.
He'll get his redemption pips I suppose. Him being dishonourable has all been a cunning plan or has it?
What do you rely on then regards Lorca? He has sensitive eyes due to a battle injury. Do we even know what battle or are we assuming it is related to the supposed recent killing of his previous crew? We know Lorca is actually cruel. The continued use of the Tardigrade, playing mind games with the Discovery crew. His 'redemption' could go either way.
I agree about it being less tortuous for the viewer not having to endure all that Klingon guttural speak. At least one or two of them speak English now
Burnham didn't report that the Tardigrade was being hurt by the jumps until she'd confirmed it with Dr. Culber, after Lorca had been captured. Jeeze, Lorca can't win with you. He's guilty because of stuff you don't know, he's guilty because of stuff he didn't know...
The Tardigrade was suffering and imprisoned. Blind Freddy could see that.
BTW how I view Lorca winning or not is my call.
Lorca was on the bridge for every jump. They have done 3 in total over 48 hours as per the dialogue. Did he even know *how* the Tardigrade was being used? He never watched the process of engaging the DASH drive. I doubt he would have cared about the details as long as it worked. He can only rely on reports from his crew if there is something wrong.
Culber was the first one initially formally informed of the potential harm being done to Ripper by Burnham. He was unsure about whether it even felt pain, but was willing to do some medical scans to confirm its condition. Note, that when she went to inform Lorca of her concerns next, he was already captured and missing.
So she told Saru, who dismissed her out of hand because he crucially needed the spore drive to find and retrieve the captain. There was no way he was going to fail his captain the way she had failed hers as 1st officer. And that was that.
So she went to tell Stamets and Tilly to try to find a workaround that would spare the creature.
Where is it Lorca's fault again?
Culber was the first one initially formally informed of the potential harm being done to Ripper by Burnham. He was unsure about whether it even felt pain, but was willing to do some medical scans to confirm its condition. Note, that when she went to inform Lorca of her concerns next, he was already captured and missing.
So she told Saru, who dismissed her out of hand because he crucially needed the spore drive to find and retrieve the captain. There was no way he was going to fail his captain the way she had failed hers as 1st officer. And that was that.
So she went to tell Stamets and Tilly to try to find a workaround that would spare the creature.
Where is it Lorca's fault again?
So imprisoning a life form and watching it smash itself against its pen, our first introduction to 'Ripper' and one Lorca was presiding over, was an act of kindness? Respect for another life form?
When Lorca was on his away meeting he was ordered not to use the spore drive to avoid depleting their 'asset' the Tardigrade who was showing obvious signs of distress. Come on, the Captain does not live in a vacuum he was in command over an act of cruelty. He just didn't care but he knew.
When Lorca was on his away meeting he was ordered not to use the spore drive to avoid depleting their 'asset' the Tardigrade who was showing obvious signs of distress. Come on, the Captain does not live in a vacuum he was in command over an act of cruelty. He just didn't care but he knew.
Im sure he didn't care, and I'm sure if Saru was ok using an ailing Tardigrade then Lorca woulda been ok with it too,
To be frank, considering the stakes, I was ok with it.
Well maybe not ok, I recognize the problem, and the pain. But the value I would place over human life is certainly higher than what I'd place over one tardigrade so, I'd say yes to.
Owning an action and explaining it or even justifying it are different things. To acknowledge what kind of man Lorca is, what kind of Captain he is, how he represents Starfleet values and regulations, isn't suppose to be about making excuses. I get that someone might choose humanoids or Federation members over a giant bed bug and Lorca chose that path. He doesn't get to sacrifice the freedom and risk the life of another life form without it being a reflection on his character. Lorca stood over a dead Landry who had tried to cut the claw off Ripper.. and died for her own stupidity and ignorance of first contact. (Hey Lorca remember that yourself for next time). The tardigrade was wired up like a christmas tree for its jumps. I didn't see a little Starfleet blue uniform on it. It was not voluntary.. and these jumps would most definitely have been logged.
Just sayin.. ( )
Just sayin.. (
)
The exact words were "concerned about taxing our prime asset". Nothing about the creature being in distress at all. Let's be clear. Starfleet was looking for more of them, scouring everywhere. They would use them in a heartbeat if they had them, but since there was only *one* they wanted to be careful and protect the 'asset'. She also said "we believe that the enemy may have identified Discovery as our secret weapon" and he needed to dial it back until they wanted to use him again.
You keep making up straw men. Nowhere did I or others claim Lorca was acting out of kindness or respect for another life form. The first time he saw it smashing against a pen was when he thought it was an aggressive monster which might hold the key to defeating the Klingons. Yes, he was keeping it confined for the safety of the crew. Just like you lock up other dangerous animals you want to study. Then it got out and killed Landry. In his mind, it was the correct decision to keep it penned up.
Again, none of the talk about it possibly being a sentient or sapient being or in pain etc was EVER broached with Lorca onscreen. I presume if fully informed, he'd weigh up using Ripper to save the colony or destroy a Klingon raiding party etc and still chose to do it for the good of the Federation. Then we could all scowl at him for not being more like Picard.
However, since it was never put on our screens, I'm not going to ascribe things to him which never happened.
The first time they used the tardigrade, fine. It proved the concept. But once they saw that A. it worked and B. it hurt the tardigrade (which was obvious), more of an effort should have been put into using what they learned *right then*. The discovery that a human could be used instead should have at least already been made, even if they had been reluctant due to the genetic engineering prohibitions to actually put it into practice.
Lorca with his own sensitive eyes saw the lifeform he imprisoned suffering, and with his own ears heard the account of Landry's death because she was going to mutilate it. The same information that got back to his higher ups he was sitting in on. I agree with you it was obvious the Tardigrade was in distress throughout its imprisonment and its forced use.
I was glad it was freed and they have moved on to using this other weird arsed bit of science. At least Stamets made a choice.
Just on this point about ascribing things to a character. As it has been put on our screens that Lorca has been given the reputation and did not deny it, do we go by believing he killed his crew and saved himself?
Actually, Janeway DID.
Janeway destroyed her ship with the entire crew on board in Deadlock. She did this to spare her crew from a fate worse than death - to avoid torture and murder at the hands of the Vidians.
The fact that Voyager was duplicated like a conjoined twin connected at the same warp core heart is irrelevant. Both Janeways were fundamentally the same.
The only difference was Janeway died with her crew.
Starfleet captains appear to be ready to sacrifice their crew if the need arises. Kirk activated the auto destruct in Last Battlefield. Picard was ready to destroy the Enterprise in Where Silence Has Lease.
The only difference is these captains did not seek escape.
Before judging Lorca, we should first establish if he sought to escape. Because, if he didn't, then he is no different than Kirk, Picard, or Janeway.
