I would imagine that a MU crew would be an immediate danger to him. If they realize who he is and where he comes from, they might come after him. And he'd be justified in trying to get away.
Lorca and the Buran:
- Thread starter Discofan
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I would imagine that a MU crew would be an immediate danger to him. If they realize who he is and where he comes from, they might come after him. And he'd be justified in trying to get away.
It's certainly possible, in which case he would be the third character to be back from the dead, after Georgiou and Culber.
He'll probably go through a time anomaly that will not only send him to our universe but 930 years in the future.
IIRC, her comments about him being different included the bedroom. At least, I took it that way.
I agree she even implied that prime Lorca was better in bed which makes sense I mean that Lorca seemed like he wasn't very considerate of the women he slept with.
I interpreted the scene where Cornwell took notice of Lorca's scars as an indication they had indeed slept together previously, and when they did Lorca didn't have those scars.
What Lorca told Mudd is not necessarily what Lorca told Starfleet. Probably similar, since he didn't have any fear of Mudd or Tyler spilling the beans, but it's all but certain Lorca was trying to intimidate and out-psycho Mudd, so leaving him with the impression that he believed strongly enough in the concept of "a fate worse than death" to put that into action with his own beloved crew was in his interests. He was telling Mudd, "I've killed people I liked more for less reason."
The version he told Starfleet was probably much more noble-sounding. The ship is wrecked, much of the crew is dead, the Klingons are closing in, maybe boarding parties are already rampaging down the corridors. Lorca bravely activates the self destruct, his first officer slugs him when he refused to evacuate (since the Klingons will shoot down any escape pods) and throws him into a shuttle at the last possible second, leaving him half-dead and half-blind, limping home.
(This would all be a lot cleaner if Landry had also been replaced by her mirror-universe counterpart, giving him a natural co-conspirator. It's slightly odd that the PT version is the more obsessive and brutal of the two. On the other hand, if Lorca saved her, that could account for her personal loyalty, both in that she owed him her life, and that they might share a secret about how craven their escape really was.)
As for getting command of the Discovery, that's the simple part. Lorca was tight with Mirror-Stamets, and knew his research could allow travel to alternate universes. "Mushroom drive" sounds, frankly, ridiculous. It's exactly the sort of rear-action boondoggle where Starfleet would love to stick a suspiciously-sane Captain who had just experienced a major loss when they'd be hurting for officers; somebody has to captain the fungus-farm, and it just so happens that the only person who actually wants to be on that flying joke is also someone you'd rather put on psych leave if he'd just give you an excuse, freeing up another captain to run missions that aren't a total waste of time. Lorca volunteers for the DASH drive project, reveals a hitherto unknown enthusiast's interest in astromycology, and specifically asks for the less-likable of the two scientists working on the project. He fills out his crew with people who had a black mark from the Shenzhou (because he's setting up to build a rapport with Burnham), who would likewise be seen as undesirable by most of the fleet.
And then once the spore drive works, Starfleet immediately starts elbowing Lorca in the ribs, encouraging him to maybe take a vacation, sips some jippers on a beach, and let less someone slightly less creepy and angry command what just went from being the least important posting in Starfleet to the most.
The version he told Starfleet was probably much more noble-sounding. The ship is wrecked, much of the crew is dead, the Klingons are closing in, maybe boarding parties are already rampaging down the corridors. Lorca bravely activates the self destruct, his first officer slugs him when he refused to evacuate (since the Klingons will shoot down any escape pods) and throws him into a shuttle at the last possible second, leaving him half-dead and half-blind, limping home.
(This would all be a lot cleaner if Landry had also been replaced by her mirror-universe counterpart, giving him a natural co-conspirator. It's slightly odd that the PT version is the more obsessive and brutal of the two. On the other hand, if Lorca saved her, that could account for her personal loyalty, both in that she owed him her life, and that they might share a secret about how craven their escape really was.)
As for getting command of the Discovery, that's the simple part. Lorca was tight with Mirror-Stamets, and knew his research could allow travel to alternate universes. "Mushroom drive" sounds, frankly, ridiculous. It's exactly the sort of rear-action boondoggle where Starfleet would love to stick a suspiciously-sane Captain who had just experienced a major loss when they'd be hurting for officers; somebody has to captain the fungus-farm, and it just so happens that the only person who actually wants to be on that flying joke is also someone you'd rather put on psych leave if he'd just give you an excuse, freeing up another captain to run missions that aren't a total waste of time. Lorca volunteers for the DASH drive project, reveals a hitherto unknown enthusiast's interest in astromycology, and specifically asks for the less-likable of the two scientists working on the project. He fills out his crew with people who had a black mark from the Shenzhou (because he's setting up to build a rapport with Burnham), who would likewise be seen as undesirable by most of the fleet.
And then once the spore drive works, Starfleet immediately starts elbowing Lorca in the ribs, encouraging him to maybe take a vacation, sips some jippers on a beach, and let less someone slightly less creepy and angry command what just went from being the least important posting in Starfleet to the most.
What to add? That Decaf/Mirror universe switcharoos are not symmetrical in general. The original TOS example is, but basically none of the DS9 ones are - the heroes going over enter their respective hero-sized and -shaped holes in the Mirror realm because their counterparts are dead.
The DSC Lorca switcharoo may be closer to the DS9 case, then. We really don't know what happened to Decaf Lorca, not even though thoroughly unreliable hearsay; for all we know, Mirror Lorca entered his ship and then killed him with a truncheon in the library or something. While the story of the loss of the USS Buran in "Choose Your Pain" is indeed likely to be fabrication customized for the listener, we don't hear of an alternative version at all, simply because Lorca isn't the sort of villain to explain things.
The loss of ISS Discovery is intriguing in itself. If the two ships changed universes but not places, as Saru (despite early reservations) seems to think they did end up where SB46 ought to have been, then Klingons destroyed the Mirror starship with her irrelevant crew right next to a supposedly safe starbase. Which sort of makes it weirder that Cornwell survived, shuttling over to another starbase that was supposedly even more proximal to Pahvo. Were the Klingons out to avenge Kol and chasing/ambushing the Discovery, any Discovery? Randomly hitting SB46, as an opening move of the random cloaked strike campaign we hear about? Not responsible for the destruction at all?
Timo Saloniemi
The DSC Lorca switcharoo may be closer to the DS9 case, then. We really don't know what happened to Decaf Lorca, not even though thoroughly unreliable hearsay; for all we know, Mirror Lorca entered his ship and then killed him with a truncheon in the library or something. While the story of the loss of the USS Buran in "Choose Your Pain" is indeed likely to be fabrication customized for the listener, we don't hear of an alternative version at all, simply because Lorca isn't the sort of villain to explain things.
The loss of ISS Discovery is intriguing in itself. If the two ships changed universes but not places, as Saru (despite early reservations) seems to think they did end up where SB46 ought to have been, then Klingons destroyed the Mirror starship with her irrelevant crew right next to a supposedly safe starbase. Which sort of makes it weirder that Cornwell survived, shuttling over to another starbase that was supposedly even more proximal to Pahvo. Were the Klingons out to avenge Kol and chasing/ambushing the Discovery, any Discovery? Randomly hitting SB46, as an opening move of the random cloaked strike campaign we hear about? Not responsible for the destruction at all?
Timo Saloniemi
That reminds me of "The Jackal", a movie where Bruces Willis plays a very bad guy, the arch-villain of that movie (that isn't even BW) just had his brother killed by the police and so his cousin was telling him what happened and he asked:
"What did you do to avenge my brother?"
The cousin answers: "I could do nothing, the police were surrounding us they would have killed us all!!"
So the arch-villain says: "I see." and he picks up an ax that was hanging on the wall and swiftly plants it right in the middle of his cousin's skull. The guy, of course, drops dead and the AV says (to the other people in the room): "I loved this man. If I can do that to someone I love, imagine what I will do to someone I hate!"
On the other hand, when Lorca explains the "truth" of his loss to Mudd, it also comes out as an apology: "No, I wasn't a complete coward" is as much a part of that message (perhaps aimed at Tyler) as "Yes, I'm an utterly ruthless bastard" is (to rattle up Mudd).
In any case, Mudd knows the popular truth about the incident, but that truth need not be Lorca's doing: it's merely what people would learn when the ship fails to return but her captain does return, plus some moralizing which in itself is disingenuous for Mudd's part, his own attempt at psyching out his opponent. It need not be what Lorca told Starfleet, any more than the story about blowing up the ship out of "mercy" is.
Timo Saloniemi
In any case, Mudd knows the popular truth about the incident, but that truth need not be Lorca's doing: it's merely what people would learn when the ship fails to return but her captain does return, plus some moralizing which in itself is disingenuous for Mudd's part, his own attempt at psyching out his opponent. It need not be what Lorca told Starfleet, any more than the story about blowing up the ship out of "mercy" is.
Timo Saloniemi
Lorca leaving Mudd behind was completely un-Starfleet, just as Landry's general behavior which is weird because she wasn't from the MU but she was no different from her counterpart. I mean no matter how he felt about Mudd a true Starfleet guy would have taken him with him and get caught because he would have betrayed them at the first sign of trouble.
Then again, Tyler was being "a true Starfleet guy" at the time, oblivious to his true relationship with L'Rell and so forth. On the other hand, he appeared to be fully in possession of his faculties, despite all the torture, imprisonment and, uh, underlying issues. By this gold standard, leaving Mudd behind was fine and well.
I wonder... Is Mudd a citizen of the UFP? If he isn't, then it would make sense for our heroes to search for alternative means of negating the threat he poses, such as making him chattel to his father-in-law rather than sending him to Dr. Adams. The legal option of prosecuting him might not exist at this point of time. Although it clearly does a decade later.
Timo Saloniemi
I wonder... Is Mudd a citizen of the UFP? If he isn't, then it would make sense for our heroes to search for alternative means of negating the threat he poses, such as making him chattel to his father-in-law rather than sending him to Dr. Adams. The legal option of prosecuting him might not exist at this point of time. Although it clearly does a decade later.
Timo Saloniemi
Well, Stamets was witness to Mudd's killing the whole crew multiple times so at the very least Mudd could have been convicted for attempted mass murder, which IMO seems serious enough to put him away for many years. It's the equivalent of if the police caught someone trying to bomb a building with hundreds of people in it. How long do you think someone like that should spend in prison? A lifetime doesn't seem like it's enough.
What I'm wondering about is jurisdiction, is all. If Mudd is neither a UFP citizen nor the citizen of some entity Starfleet feels safe antagonizing, then the best bet for either punishing him (if the heroes are of the vengeful type) or negating the threat posed by him (which the heroes witnessed firsthand) would be to go under the counter. A vaporizing blast with a phaser is an option, but having the guy put under the guard of a well-funded and unscrupulous private army (that is, Grimes') is another, and potentially more acceptable even if the heroes specifically want to steer clear of the law.
If Mudd is subject to UFP law (in practice as well as in theory - you can't exactly punish the citizen of a superior nation if said nation doesn't want you to), then sending him to a mental asylum for fixing would appear the way to go. We never learn of any repeat offenses from people who have undergone Adams-style therapy, not even in the specific case of Harry. But our heroes might not feel satisfied with that, because Harry is a menace exactly for his ability to come up with all-new schemes.
If OTOH Adams has not yet made enough progress to transform the criminal management system, Mudd might go to conventional jail (even though they're already retiring jailsats, as we learn in the second season). But if he can escape from Klingon military-grade prison... Perhaps the heroes feel much safer trusting him with Grimes than with regular imprisonment. Lorca at least would see eye to eye with the arms merchant. And said merchant's superfast response to the call suggests he indeed is a man of truly exceptional means.
Timo Saloniemi
If Mudd is subject to UFP law (in practice as well as in theory - you can't exactly punish the citizen of a superior nation if said nation doesn't want you to), then sending him to a mental asylum for fixing would appear the way to go. We never learn of any repeat offenses from people who have undergone Adams-style therapy, not even in the specific case of Harry. But our heroes might not feel satisfied with that, because Harry is a menace exactly for his ability to come up with all-new schemes.
If OTOH Adams has not yet made enough progress to transform the criminal management system, Mudd might go to conventional jail (even though they're already retiring jailsats, as we learn in the second season). But if he can escape from Klingon military-grade prison... Perhaps the heroes feel much safer trusting him with Grimes than with regular imprisonment. Lorca at least would see eye to eye with the arms merchant. And said merchant's superfast response to the call suggests he indeed is a man of truly exceptional means.
Timo Saloniemi
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Well, they had no choice but to do everything super fast in that episode. Stamets is the only one who remembers anything about what happened before and one half an hour is extremely short. In that time he has to say the exact words to convince Burham and pass on the info. also, tell what to say to Tyler so he won't waste like five minutes doubting her and then finally convince the captain who then has to order everyone to play along. Plus make all the modifications to the system in a way that will be invisible to Mudd. And finally, tell Grimes that the man he has been looking for is there at his disposal. I mean imagine if it was the middle of the night and Grimes and his daughter were sleeping, you'd then have to convince a flunky to wake up his boss. Not the easiest thing to do!!! Especially when you have less than thirty minutes to do everything!!!
...Naturally, if the penultimate loop consists of Burnham figuring out how to defeat Mudd, and then depositing this idea on Stamets, then the activity to defeat Mudd can begin right after Stamets on the next loop convinces Burnham, which the bunch of them can now arrange to be really quick and efficient (Stamets walks up to Burnham, slaps her in the face and tells her "If you don't join me in the Ready Room right now, I'm broadcasting this pic you gave me of you being intimate with Ripper on every monitor aboard, and let's talk while we walk", then walks her to Lorca who likewise has previously helped Stamets fake extremely compromising material on him, and Bob is your Rear Admiral).
Is 28 minutes enough to summon Grimes? Can the heroes presummon Grimes? Or can the call only go out when Mudd inadvertently makes it himself? We don't learn, exactly - it would suffice for the needs of our heroes that Mudd merely fails to call the Klingons. And we already know Mudd's sabotage of the ship's key systems begins after he comes aboard, which will be later than the first opportunity Stamets has of contacting Grimes. It's just that Mudd is on the lookout for countermeasures when he comes aboard, and no doubt not only watches out for outgoing messages, but also varies his method of entry to preempt capture. But Stamets could be extra careful there.
Timo Saloniemi
Is 28 minutes enough to summon Grimes? Can the heroes presummon Grimes? Or can the call only go out when Mudd inadvertently makes it himself? We don't learn, exactly - it would suffice for the needs of our heroes that Mudd merely fails to call the Klingons. And we already know Mudd's sabotage of the ship's key systems begins after he comes aboard, which will be later than the first opportunity Stamets has of contacting Grimes. It's just that Mudd is on the lookout for countermeasures when he comes aboard, and no doubt not only watches out for outgoing messages, but also varies his method of entry to preempt capture. But Stamets could be extra careful there.
Timo Saloniemi
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