Looting Tech?

[Kezersoze]

In the early seasons of Voyager the Kazon are portrayed as the bad guys for being scavengers of tech, and being warlike as well, but later on Voyager goes on a tech spree themselves.

In Dark Frontier Voyager just straights up pirates tech from the Borg, hell! they looted 7 of 9 earlier! which is even better cause now they have a hot borg technician to help explain how things work!
And the thing is the Borg were very similiar to early Voyager in that they didn't share their tech voluntarily and would comeback to either destroy and take back their stuff like Voyager did when they lost one of their transporters. Even their limited Quantum Slipstream Drive was based off of an alien design that was intended to be used against them. It just seem like it was alright to loot if their violent/hostile but if their peacefull we'll just look at your tech behind your back.

I guess I take the view that any species dramatically more advanced than Voyager, like the Voth, would always have some type of prime directive as well. And that seemed to be a dilemma for the writers, cause what could Voyager possibly have that a species would exchange the secrets of slipstream/trans-warp tech? In Prime Factors one of the citizens of that planet illegally traded one their long range transporter devices for what? literature? so he breaks their laws and gives uber advanced tech for some afternoon reading, what kinda bull is that!

 

[froot]

Seven wasn't so much loot as they were forced to disconnect her after she tried to slap the "panic" button and call her Borgie buddies. The Borg turned on them and were going to assimilate them ten ways to Tuesday. They had no choice. After she was disconnected, she was kinda their responsibility. What were they supposed to do? Airlock her? Chakotay tried that and it didn't work so well.

The quantum slipstream drive was pretty much dropped in their hands. Arcturis was even kind enough to help them understand and install the damn thing. They hardly stole from him, even if his intentions were a little less than kind. They would have been awful stupid not to use it. Sure, they had to do a little do-over but they eventually got some mileage out of the thing.

Actually, "Dark Frontier" is really the only time Voyager ever got aggressive about looting, as you mentioned. That episode's been mentioned before as questionable. I guess my view is that Voyager, as well as the Federation, was already on crummy terms with the Borg. You know, that whole Wolf 359 thing, plus the little stunt the Borg tried to pull at the end of "Scorpion II." Spoils of war and all that. Plus they only thought of the idea after a Borg ship attacked them first in the teaser and inadvertently dropped off a handy little map in the process.

Anyway, "Dark Frontier" is the only example that even fits what you're saying. Maybe "Imperfection" as well, since they did try to loot a node off a derelict Borg ship. That ship was already free pickings, though.

Usually Voyager gets knocked for the opposite fault - they tended to be rather generous with their stuff (and the ship itself!) in the later seasons. Janeway even got cranky when she found out that dude in "The Void" murdered someone for a part they needed and basically shoved it up his backside and kicked him out. Not to mention that time they ferried a bunch of refugees across hostile space, took in a gaggle of Klingons (okay, they did sort of blow up their own ship,) let Neelix and Kes camp out on board on a permanent basis, gave the Borglets a home, shared stuff AND allowed tours of the ship at that space station in "Survival Instinct," and so on.

EDIT: And that whole thing with the holodeck tech in "The Killing Game." But I try to avoid talking about that. It raises my blood pressure too much.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The database was probably billions if not trillions of books from thousands of worlds alive and dead.

One book took over the world in TOS A Piece of the Action, and again in the TNG Royale. Oh, and the Son cult destroyed the Romans

That database was far more dangerous than a few tonnes of Phasers.

I started almost exactly this same thread last week.

The Prime Directive is about respecting the unique characteristics of an alien culture. In the real world the universal Presence of McDonalds and Friends on every TV station in every country in the world says that America is wallpapering it's identity over the top of all the little savages living anywhere outside the States. The US is I suppose a significantly advanced civilization in some ways, who doesn't give a fig if everyother country on the planet abandons their beliefs to become homogenized Xeroxs of North America.

This is what I've figured out.

Stealing is wrong.

Salvage is okay but it's only salvage if you're in open space and no bugger is already there saying they own "whatever".

Archaeology is 50/50.

Grave robbing is wrong.

Booty is 50/50 considering how contested the space is when you're loading up your cargo bay. I mean if you're murdering sentient people in self defence during a war, it "should" be okay to steal from them? Or should it? It's not like war crimes are something to be taken seriously.

Giving to a species the Federation has a treaty with is okay.

Giving to a species the Federation doesn't have a treaty with is 50/50.

Accepting gifts from an unknown species is dangerous and wrong.

Accepting gifts from a future era is dangerous and wrong.

Gifting a species technology they do not understand morally or technically is dangerous an wrong.
....

This is what seven years with Picard taught me but Janeway spent seven years trying to disassemble all these lessons.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I guess I take the view that any species dramatically more advanced than Voyager, like the Voth, would always have some type of prime directive as well. And that seemed to be a dilemma for the writers, cause what could Voyager possibly have that a species would exchange the secrets of slipstream/trans-warp tech? In Prime Factors one of the citizens of that planet illegally traded one their long range transporter devices for what? literature? so he breaks their laws and gives uber advanced tech for some afternoon reading, what kinda bull is that!

I see the Prime Directive as a bastion of the Federation and no doubt some Federation members don't have the same near religious feelings about it as the humans do. Klingons, Romulans, Andorians..that is not an idea that sprung from their cultures and understanding of diplomacy in space. Buy, trade, sell to your planet's advantage--that's a perfectly understandable response. That is always presented as a lesser choice is a fancy of Trek ideals.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Imperial colonization is nasty.

The Spanish were assholes.

The humans of the future probably were equally nasty without a little regulation. God knows what thy did to start the earth Romulan war (I don't beleive in Enterprise, It's a Mirror Universe.) Besides the Prime Directive is a Starfleet Rule, not a federation rule as far as I have been able to ascertain since i doubt that regular civilians would be friendly to other general orders like perhaps even number 24 however everyone is bound by General order Number Four it would seem.

Klingons and Romulans still keep slaves.

 

[exodus]

In the early seasons of Voyager the Kazon are portrayed as the bad guys for being scavengers of tech, and being warlike as well, but later on Voyager goes on a tech spree themselves.

In Dark Frontier Voyager just straights up pirates tech from the Borg, hell! they looted 7 of 9 earlier! which is even better cause now they have a hot borg technician to help explain how things work!
And the thing is the Borg were very similiar to early Voyager in that they didn't share their tech voluntarily and would comeback to either destroy and take back their stuff like Voyager did when they lost one of their transporters. Even their limited Quantum Slipstream Drive was based off of an alien design that was intended to be used against them. It just seem like it was alright to loot if their violent/hostile but if their peacefull we'll just look at your tech behind your back.

I guess I take the view that any species dramatically more advanced than Voyager, like the Voth, would always have some type of prime directive as well. And that seemed to be a dilemma for the writers, cause what could Voyager possibly have that a species would exchange the secrets of slipstream/trans-warp tech? In Prime Factors one of the citizens of that planet illegally traded one their long range transporter devices for what? literature? so he breaks their laws and gives uber advanced tech for some afternoon reading, what kinda bull is that!

I think it was learning to adapt to life in the DQ.

When Voyager first got there, yes the Kazon were bad guys because they steal. Back in the AQ, stealing is wrong. However, in the DQ most socities we discover are closed. Due to Borg, Vidiians & Hirogen, species in the DQ have learned not to interact or trade with each other because it opens them up to attack. Seeing how Voyager had trouble making allies many times, they had to adapt to DQ life and learn to steal to survive. It makes Janeway a hypocrite in "The Void" but that seems to be her nature.

 

[froot]

In the early seasons of Voyager the Kazon are portrayed as the bad guys for being scavengers of tech, and being warlike as well, but later on Voyager goes on a tech spree themselves.

In Dark Frontier Voyager just straights up pirates tech from the Borg, hell! they looted 7 of 9 earlier! which is even better cause now they have a hot borg technician to help explain how things work!
And the thing is the Borg were very similiar to early Voyager in that they didn't share their tech voluntarily and would comeback to either destroy and take back their stuff like Voyager did when they lost one of their transporters. Even their limited Quantum Slipstream Drive was based off of an alien design that was intended to be used against them. It just seem like it was alright to loot if their violent/hostile but if their peacefull we'll just look at your tech behind your back.

I guess I take the view that any species dramatically more advanced than Voyager, like the Voth, would always have some type of prime directive as well. And that seemed to be a dilemma for the writers, cause what could Voyager possibly have that a species would exchange the secrets of slipstream/trans-warp tech? In Prime Factors one of the citizens of that planet illegally traded one their long range transporter devices for what? literature? so he breaks their laws and gives uber advanced tech for some afternoon reading, what kinda bull is that!

I think it was learning to adapt to life in the DQ.

When Voyager first got there, yes the Kazon were bad guys because they steal. Back in the AQ, stealing is wrong. However, in the DQ most socities we discover are closed. Due to Borg, Vidiians & Hirogen, species in the DQ have learned not to interact or trade with each other because it opens them up to attack. Seeing how Voyager had trouble making allies many times, they had to adapt to DQ life and learn to steal to survive. It makes Janeway a hypocrite in "The Void" but that seems to be her nature.

But when do they openly, brazenly steal anything outside of "Dark Frontier?" Ever? I guess an argument could be made for stealing in "Imperfection," too - but the ship was derelict.

EDIT: Unless you're referring to the comment about trading replicators, which, yes, runs counter to the first season. We never hear who they traded them WITH, though. And that's not stealing, that's an entirely opposite fault.

 

[exodus]

In the early seasons of Voyager the Kazon are portrayed as the bad guys for being scavengers of tech, and being warlike as well, but later on Voyager goes on a tech spree themselves.

In Dark Frontier Voyager just straights up pirates tech from the Borg, hell! they looted 7 of 9 earlier! which is even better cause now they have a hot borg technician to help explain how things work!
And the thing is the Borg were very similiar to early Voyager in that they didn't share their tech voluntarily and would comeback to either destroy and take back their stuff like Voyager did when they lost one of their transporters. Even their limited Quantum Slipstream Drive was based off of an alien design that was intended to be used against them. It just seem like it was alright to loot if their violent/hostile but if their peacefull we'll just look at your tech behind your back.

I guess I take the view that any species dramatically more advanced than Voyager, like the Voth, would always have some type of prime directive as well. And that seemed to be a dilemma for the writers, cause what could Voyager possibly have that a species would exchange the secrets of slipstream/trans-warp tech? In Prime Factors one of the citizens of that planet illegally traded one their long range transporter devices for what? literature? so he breaks their laws and gives uber advanced tech for some afternoon reading, what kinda bull is that!

I think it was learning to adapt to life in the DQ.

When Voyager first got there, yes the Kazon were bad guys because they steal. Back in the AQ, stealing is wrong. However, in the DQ most socities we discover are closed. Due to Borg, Vidiians & Hirogen, species in the DQ have learned not to interact or trade with each other because it opens them up to attack. Seeing how Voyager had trouble making allies many times, they had to adapt to DQ life and learn to steal to survive. It makes Janeway a hypocrite in "The Void" but that seems to be her nature.

But when do they openly, brazenly steal anything outside of "Dark Frontier?" Ever? I guess an argument could be made for stealing in "Imperfection," too - but the ship was derelict.

EDIT: Unless you're referring to the comment about trading replicators, which, yes, runs counter to the first season. We never hear who they traded them WITH, though. And that's not stealing, that's an entirely opposite fault.

Off the top of my head I couldn't think of any other time besides "Dark Frontier" that they did but I wasn't 100% sure, so I figured a general statement would cover the bases.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Imperfection was one of the first times I went white bare knuckles about how Janeway might not be perfect.

JANEWAY: Tuvok, here. Help me get this off him. No apparent damage to the cortical node.
PARIS [OC]: Captain, you've got company. There's a ship
TUVOK: Two to beam out.
JANEWAY: Delta Flyer, respond.
TUVOK: Three humanoids have just transported aboard this vessel.
JANEWAY: Drones?
SALVAGE ALIEN: The only drones here are dead, and they belong to us. Who are you?
JANEWAY: Captain Kathryn Janeway of the starship Voyager.
SALVAGE ALIEN: This is my debris field, Captain.
JANEWAY: We weren't aware of that.
SALVAGE ALIEN: What have you taken?
JANEWAY: A cortical node. We need it to save one of my crew.
SALVAGE ALIEN: Everything here belongs to us.
JANEWAY: (takes him hostage) Put down your weapons and I'll consider not activating this laser scalpel.
(brief fight, Tuvok is shot, they get beamed out just in time)

Janeway was on that cube for 5 minutes and a local arrives to tell them that they should bog off or else. It's pretty obvious to me that these guys were just shit at marking their territory.

Kes was property. She was stolen.

The cloud was all about how janeway was harvesting body matter from what she didn't know was a life form. Ignorance of being a monster is not... but she went back in and drained her fuel tanks to put right her blundering. Very Starfleet.

Prime Factors. Duh.

In Basics Janeway almost stole a planet. Sharpening spears to exterminate an indigenous population that thought she was a dick.

The mobile emitter is technically lost and found, and you can assume that Braxton II might have been seeding the timeline with advanced tech to see how shit would turn out, unless Janeway "hid it" somehow, which would be a violation of Starfleet temporal policy.

 

[Kezersoze]

Prime Factors. Duh.

In "Prime Factors" I liked that the crew was willing to go behind Janeway's back to get the transporter thing. For at least an episode they decided to actually be willing to do whatever it takes to get home . And really, if it had succeeded what was Janeway going to do? take them back to the Delta Quadrant?

 

[exodus]

Kes was property. She was stolen.

No money exchange hands for Kes' ownership.

Kes was being held against her will, this is true but she was not property.
She was kidnapped.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Prime Factors. Duh.

In "Prime Factors" I liked that the crew was willing to go behind Janeway's back to get the transporter thing. For at least an episode they decided to actually be willing to do whatever it takes to get home . And really, if it had succeeded what was Janeway going to do? take them back to the Delta Quadrant?

Yes. That's exactly what she should have been done. However considering there was no point in the first 6 seasons that Voyager was Beyond Sikaran justice, for some reasons they weren't all too bothered by what... It was Seska. The funny thing is that from the small amount of research I did years ago, no one knew Seska was Cardassian till they began writing State of Flux, least of all Martha Hackett.

They should have handed Tom off when he nuked that power station in the space ocean because he was a terrorist, and if that Dreadnaught had hit it's target some one would have wanted a pound of flesh from B'Elanna.

Kes was property. She was stolen.

No money exchange hands for Kes' ownership.

Kes was being held against her will, this is true but she was not property.
She was kidnapped.

In an area where slavery is not legal, that may be the case. But Ocampa was a Kazon world in Kazon space subject to kazon law which thinks, just like the Holy Christian Bible and America till the 1860s, that Slavery is supercool and good for the economy. Of course there would have to be rules about who could be taken as a slave and why and how they could get out of it, just like in Rome.

It's called Cultural relativity.

Different doesn't always mean wrong even when it seems blatantly obvious that you're dealing with asshole ignorant savages, but Janeways highest law is to respect the values and legal institutions of foreign powers.

Archer, Pike and Kirk all had to deal with Orion Slavers.

Inside the bounds of federation space, and then I suppose there's still a requirement that Sanctuary had to be asked for...

Taking Kes was no different than refugee running Telepaths in Devore space. Doing the right thing is downright criminal.

 

[bryce]

It's called Cultural relativity.

Different doesn't always mean wrong even when it seems blatantly obvious that you're dealing with asshole ignorant savages, but Janeways highest law is to respect the values and legal institutions of foreign powers.

I guess the USA was bad for not respecting Germany's "culture" and "legal institution" of genocide in murdering millions of Jews.

Maybe by Federation standards, we were...

 

[Guy Gardener]

Cuba?

The Sudan?

The first 35 years of Saddam's administration?

You have to chose your battles.

(Perhaps I should have said "pretend" to respect, but at the very least admit that bad ideas exist you have to be a touch arrogant to overtly oppose because even if you're right, there's a few million people determined to insist that it is you who are wrong.)

The Prime Directive stops (lower) middle management, Starship Captains, from dragging the entire empire into conflicts that should be decided upon, yay or nay, at the highest levels.

Last I checked, America ignored what Germany was doing until the Japanese attacked pearl harbour 2 years after the invasion of Poland and if not for that, they had no intention of becoming involved in WWII because it really didn't effect the American world view.

But yes it was a criminal act to oppose the laws and policy of Nazi Germany inside German controlled regions, but since most people can't be stuffed following the laws of so called decent countries, I don't see what the problem is that one can't comprehend that it's sometimes good to be a criminal just like Robin Hood or Che Guevera?

George Washington was a terrorist.

Was it good or bad that he was a terrorist?

History decided that it was good.

Is every Joe Shmoe that tries to pull down America and remake it in their own image a "good terrorist" too?

 

[exodus]

Archer, Pike and Kirk all had to deal with Orion Slavers

You still pay for an Orion Slave girl.
She is property.
Slave in the US & in Rome were still bought and sold.
Nobody paid for Kes.
She isn't property.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Tell that to the Dutch.

They just used to wander into Africa, blast the bejezzus out some thatch hut villages and take as many free people as that wanted to, and then sell them on for profit.

Slaves had to come from somewhere other than the belly's of other slaves.

The Romans used to take slaves from the nations they conquered as booty and tribute.

Might equals right.

T'Pol and others from the Enterprise were taken and sold on the Orion Slave dock by the Big Show. Goodness, Archer even paid for a few of their safe return. Later T'Pol had to remind Archer that slavery was illegal in the Federation when he was gift three dancing girls to cement a business transaction.

Kes was just unfortunate enough to burrow up out of a golpher hole while the surface of her planet was being ruled by dickheads who decided that she was a resource to be exploited rather than a liability to be coddled.