Looks like DS9 will not get Blu Ray

[Relayer1]

Problem being, we simply don't know how in demand DS9 and Voyager have been over the last decade. If there's been no real demand, CBS may not think that demand is going to grow going forward.

I just checked Space's listings here in Canada and Space is currently airing TNG and Voyager. And the last time that I had Space on my cable package (which was before the TNG Remaster) they were upconverting both TNG and Voyager to HD. At that time they were also airing TOS in it's 16:9 HD version. So I would assume that now that all of TNG is in HD, SPACE is probably paying a higher price per episode (unless CBS is still handling the sale of ad time, just like Paramount did back in the 80's and 90's, in which case both CBS & SPACE are able to charge more for the ad time), and they have most likely ditched the SD versions and are airing the HD versions. And out of all the shows that SPACE is currently airing, Voyager is probably the only show that I can see that is still Standard-Definition (Unless SPACE reruns old episodes of Doctor Who every now and then). (http://www.space.ca/Shows) Plus it's interesting how currently, Voyager currently holds the 5p.m. Eastern timeslot on the schedule (TNG currently holds the 4p.m. slot) every Monday to Friday; if I'm not mistaken that is when "Prime Time" is considered to start.

But there definitely is a market for CBS to remaster Voyager, and with DS9, it could be that they have interest, but because of it's status as a Standard-Definition show, that might be giving stations and advertisers "cold feet", especially if the cost to air the episodes is as high as they were when they were still in production (plus I remember that SPACE was still airing DS9 up til 2012, but then it was removed---I'm wondering if their contract on the series was up, and when they went to renew it, SPACE was hoping to get it for a little less than they had been paying, due to it being Standard-Definition---and that may be why DS9 is not airing anymore, the contracts for the stations to air it have expired, CBS wants a certain level of money, but stations and advertisers are refusing to pay it for a Standard Definition show).

In the U.S., Deep Space Nine hasn't aired since the Spike TV agreement expired in 2007 or 2008. Even then, it was rarely aired after Spike's first run through even though they had the exclusive rights to it and paid Paramount nearly a billion dollars for the rights to the 24th century series.

The stark reality may simply be that Deep Space Nine never gained any traction outside of a small, loyal fandom and the lackluster sales of TNG in HD likely was the nail in its already slim chances coffin.

Then the simple question for anyone broadcasting Star Trek is: how much Star Trek can be supported by OTA/cable audiences? Between TOS and TNG, there are already 250 episode ready for HD broadcast.

There's ALWAYS Trek on cable over here - even DS9 and Voyager get airtime.

A hi-def remaster of some sort will presumably be required to ensure their continued syndication saleability as standard-def dies off. No money will be spent on new CG or upgraded effects though. It'll just be upscaled and tweaked where no film is available.

I'd also be surprised if it was cost effective to release on disc...

 

[tomswift2002]

In the U.S., Deep Space Nine hasn't aired since the Spike TV agreement expired in 2007 or 2008. Even then, it was rarely aired after Spike's first run through even though they had the exclusive rights to it and paid Paramount nearly a billion dollars for the rights to the 24th century series.

The stark reality may simply be that Deep Space Nine never gained any traction outside of a small, loyal fandom and the lackluster sales of TNG in HD likely was the nail in its already slim chances coffin.

Then the simple question for anyone broadcasting Star Trek is: how much Star Trek can be supported by OTA/cable audiences? Between TOS and TNG, there are already 250 episode ready for HD broadcast.

Don't forget but back in 2007-2008 most stations were still broadcasting SD, with the occasional HD broadcast. Even back then CBS was still distributing the Remastered TOS to the stations on Standard-Definition video tape. So the value of SD material was higher than it is now. Now with broadcast, SD material is near worthless, unless it is for news or niche stations that are still broadcasting in 480i. Even a lot of niche stations are switching to broadcasting in HD, even if it is only 720p.

But with 4k televisions now out, and 4k broadcasting on the horizon, SD material is going to become even more worthless. And that means that TV stations are going to become even less interested in DS9 and Voyager. So DS9 and Voyager remaining in SD (even if they try to offer them as upconverted HD from the current D2 SD tapes) is going to hurt CBS's chances of enticing more broadcast sales. And if CBS is still asking the same amount of money for the series as they were 10 years ago, or even basing it on SPIKE's purchase (which, at the time SPIKE and Paramount were owned by the still-joined Viacom, so it was a "family" deal), most TV stations would not be willing to pay that for now days for SD syndicated programming.

 

[BillJ]

Don't forget but back in 2007-2008 most stations were still broadcasting SD, with the occasional HD broadcast.

But when SD ruled no one was real interested in airing it. The question will be for CBS: will we generate more revenue upgrading this particular series than we would if we just let it be? Seems, right now, the answer from them is that they're going to let it be.

 

[tomswift2002]

Don't forget but back in 2007-2008 most stations were still broadcasting SD, with the occasional HD broadcast.

But when SD ruled no one was real interested in airing it. The question will be for CBS: will we generate more revenue upgrading this particular series than we would if we just let it be? Seems, right now, the answer from them is that they're going to let it be.

And the answer would be yes they would. Right now it's status as a SD show is hurting CBS's chances of any sales. How many 1950's black and white shows do you see being reaired on TV? Aside from The Twilight Zone ( which during it's original run was not the best performer ratings wise) and the first 2 seasons of both Gilligan's Island and The Adventures of Superman, I can't think of any black and white TV series being re-aired. Even Disney's []Zorro[/I], when you see it re-aired it is mostly the computer-colored version that was made in the 90's, whereas you can still catch a number of the 1950's Disneyland episodes that re-air.

Black and White TV hasn't been desirable to TV Stations in networks in decades, and the same can be said for Standard-Definition programming. With 4k on the horizon, SD shows are going to be relegated to the same areas of the studios vaults as their black-and-white programming. And once the current contracts for Voyager and DS9 run out for any TV station in the world, how many do think will renew if CBS asks for the same level of money that they are receiving now, but won't deliver any better quality masters than what the stations are currently using?

But getting back to the original question for a second, what CBS will also need to do with Blu-Ray sales is make sure that DS9 and Voyager Blu-Ray's get on brick-and-mortar store shelves, as I found here in Ontario for TNG, the sampler, Seasons 1, 2 and 3 and the TNG movies up to Unification could be found on physical store shelves, but then the later seasons were online only. And I haven't seen any TNG Blu-ray's on brick-and-mortar store shelves in probably a year. If CBS is expecting new viewers by Blu-Ray, they are doing a pretty poor job right now with confining the sales to online only. I haven't seen any of the older DVD sets in brick-and-mortar stores for years now. The other day I did see the new Captain Kirk DVD, but that was it. If CBS is expecting people to buy the Blu-Ray's here in Eastern Ontario on impulse, it's not going to happen.

 

[BillJ]

But getting back to the original question for a second, what CBS will also need to do with Blu-Ray sales is make sure that DS9 and Voyager Blu-Ray's get on brick-and-mortar store shelves, as I found here in Ontario for TNG, the sampler, Seasons 1, 2 and 3 and the TNG movies up to Unification could be found on physical store shelves, but then the later seasons were online only. And I haven't seen any TNG Blu-ray's on brick-and-mortar store shelves in probably a year. If CBS is expecting new viewers by Blu-Ray, they are doing a pretty poor job right now with confining the sales to online only. I haven't seen any of the older DVD sets in brick-and-mortar stores for years now. The other day I did see the new Captain Kirk DVD, but that was it. If CBS is expecting people to buy the Blu-Ray's here in Eastern Ontario on impulse, it's not going to happen.

CBS has armies of people that crunch the numbers for these kinds of things. I can guarantee you they've done their homework on this.

I wonder why you think CBS pulled TNG-R from store shelves? I saw it periodically at places like Barnes and Noble but places like Walmart and Target quit carrying it, likely because it wasn't selling very well.

From all indications, once the newness wore off, TNG-R didn't sell very well. Not on disc and seemingly not to OTA/cable stations. What is the incentive for CBS to repeat that mistake?

 

[tomswift2002]

And I can guarantee you that CBS numbers people's are telling them that the future for DS9 and Voyager in 480i SD is dead. Seriously, unless the station is a niche station that airs shows from the 60's or 70's, no one wants Standard-Definition programming even for the 2 a.m. slot.

You seem to be basing your argument on home media is the only source of revenue that CBS has for the shows. Problem is, home media, whether it is physical or download, is a small area of revenue for them, since once a customer buys the product on DVD or Blu-ray, then that's it, it is a one-time source of revenue.

With broadcast CBS gets revenue everytime an episode is re-run. With CBS broadcast is always going to be the bigger revenue stream than home media.

As for TNG-R, I've looked for it in Walmart, Future Shop, Best Buy and a few other stores, and while I might see the odd copy of Best of Both Worlds, I haven't seen any of the other seasons in months. Even the Blu-Rays of Enterprise seemed to have Seasons 1 & 2 in the stores, and then the 3&4 were online only.

 

[Lynx]

I don't want to be sarcastic but why should Paramount bother to make DS9 Blu Ray DVD:s when they can't come up with functioning DS9 DVD:s for standard DVD players.

This week I bought a somewhat used and scratchy DVD of the movie "Cape Fear" for a very low price in a shop which sells used DVD:s and CD:s and it worked much better than some of my DS9 DVD.s. In fact, I could watch the whole movie without any problems at all, which I can't do with my new expensive DS9 DVD:s where some episodes are either unwatchable from the beginning or became unwatchable after watching it only once.

I created a thread about this on this forum in the beginning of this year when I discovered the problems. So far, I haven't solved the problems and I haven't got any replies at all from Paramount. Until the problem with my DS9 DVD:s are solved in an acceptable way for me, I will regard Paramount as thieves and con men.

 

[BillJ]

With broadcast CBS gets revenue everytime an episode is re-run. With CBS broadcast is always going to be the bigger revenue stream than home media.

Yes. We all understand how it works. If TNG had made a massive amount of revenue from various content distributors, don't you think CBS would be tripping all over themselves to put DS9 out?

Instead they allowed people to move on to other projects. The people who were experts in putting this stuff together.

I think we have a very clear idea of what CBS' plans for DS9 and Voyager are going forward. That is to allow them to sink into oblivion because very few people care.

 

[Lynx]

And I can guarantee you that CBS numbers people's are telling them that the future for DS9 and Voyager in 480i SD is dead. Seriously, unless the station is a niche station that airs shows from the 60's or 70's, no one wants Standard-Definition programming even for the 2 a.m. slot.

You seem to be basing your argument on home media is the only source of revenue that CBS has for the shows. Problem is, home media, whether it is physical or download, is a small area of revenue for them, since once a customer buys the product on DVD or Blu-ray, then that's it, it is a one-time source of revenue.

With broadcast CBS gets revenue everytime an episode is re-run. With CBS broadcast is always going to be the bigger revenue stream than home media.

As for TNG-R, I've looked for it in Walmart, Future Shop, Best Buy and a few other stores, and while I might see the odd copy of Best of Both Worlds, I haven't seen any of the other seasons in months. Even the Blu-Rays of Enterprise seemed to have Seasons 1 & 2 in the stores, and then the 3&4 were online only.

First they release unwatchable, damaged crap on DVD.

Then they turn a deaf ear on those who complain about the low quality of those products.

Then they refuse to release Blu Ray DVD:s of the same series.

And then they complain about illegal downloads and sue people who download the series.

Hypocrites, thieves and con men.

 

[Avro Arrow]

But getting back to the original question for a second, what CBS will also need to do with Blu-Ray sales is make sure that DS9 and Voyager Blu-Ray's get on brick-and-mortar store shelves, as I found here in Ontario for TNG, the sampler, Seasons 1, 2 and 3 and the TNG movies up to Unification could be found on physical store shelves, but then the later seasons were online only.

South-western Ontario here, but every season of TNG-R was available in store in Best Buy (and the late Future Shop) when they were released. I don't know that they necessarily restocked them when they sold them, but they were certainly on the shelves. Every so often they would run a good sale on a particular season, a couple months after the release date. I only ever picked them up on these sales, and the only one I had trouble finding in store during the sale period was Season Six.

 

[tomswift2002]

Yes. We all understand how it works. If TNG had made a massive amount of revenue from various content distributors, don't you think CBS would be tripping all over themselves to put DS9 out?

Instead they allowed people to move on to other projects. The people who were experts in putting this stuff together.

I think we have a very clear idea of what CBS' plans for DS9 and Voyager are going forward. That is to allow them to sink into oblivion because very few people care.

And you are "jumping the gun". We do not have a clear idea what CBS's plans are. TNG Season 7 Blu-Ray was only released in December, just under 5 months ago. CBS may've placed a moratorium on orders for the HD version till all the episodes were finished, and since "All Good Things" was probably completed just before Halloween (giving CBS almost six weeks to get the sets printed and shipped for a December release), the new HD versions probably were not on the sale block for New Broadcast customers to purchase till November-December. The SD versions would've been still available through the 2012-2014 remastering process, and any stations that picked up the license (or already had the license) then probably got a deal from CBS that they would get the HD masters during the time for the episodes that were already done, and future episodes, and continue to pay the SD rate until they're next contract negotiation. But for stations that didn't want the a hybrid HD/SD package, they wouldn't be able to buy the full HD package till November-December, possible January 2015.

Most stations Spring schedules would be in the final finalization stage in the October-December timeframe. So any New stations wouldn't consider adding TNG-R to their schedule till the summer, possible even waiting till the Fall 2015 schedule. And it makes sense that CBS would let the remaster team go, since why would the want to keep them around for a year, paying salary, while CBS needs to watch the numbers? But it's also normal for production companies to lay off team members between productions.

Lynx what's wrong with your DVD's? I've had my DS9 DVD's since they were released in 2003 and the still play fine.

AvroArrow, after TNG Season 3 and Enterprise Season 2, I saw the TNG movies till Unification, but for the rest of TNG and Enterprise I had to order online as I was not able to find the other seasons in Ottawa or anywhere else in Eastern Ontario that I looked. (And yet back in the early 2000's, upto 2007 when I completed Voyager and Enterprise(for a few years I didn't have the money) I was able to get all the DVD sets in stores).

 

[BillJ]

And you are "jumping the gun". We do not have a clear idea what CBS's plans are. TNG Season 7 Blu-Ray was only released in December, just under 5 months ago. CBS may've placed a moratorium on orders for the HD version till all the episodes were finished, and since "All Good Things" was probably completed just before Halloween (giving CBS almost six weeks to get the sets printed and shipped for a December release), the new HD versions probably were not on the sale block for New Broadcast customers to purchase till November-December.

I tend to take the people who work on the various projects word when they say it isn't happening.

What more do you actually need? Poor sales, they allowed the people involved to move on to other projects and CBS has said it isn't happening.

Pretty sure I'll be drinking ice water in Hell before we see an HD version of DS9 and Voyager.

 

[tomalak301]

If we don't get new Blu Ray sets can we at least get new packaging because my packages for the DS9 DVDs are falling apart. Whoever made those when the discs came out I hope got fired because he/she did a terrible job. They look nice, yeah, but they are plastic and had no longevity.

 

[Lynx]

Lynx what's wrong with your DVD's? I've had my DS9 DVD's since they were released in 2003 and the still play fine.

You'll find the whole thread about my bad DVD:s here:

http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=262327

According to yourcomment about the DVD:s from 2003, I guess that it's the DVD:s shipped to Europe who are sub-standard.

 

[tomswift2002]

I tend to take the people who work on the various projects word when they say it isn't happening.

What more do you actually need? Poor sales, they allowed the people involved to move on to other projects and CBS has said it isn't happening.

Pretty sure I'll be drinking ice water in Hell before we see an HD version of DS9 and Voyager.

I'd actually question their words a little bit unless they were in a managerial/Producer role. But even then they might not know the full story.

Poor sales? How do we know that the figures that are being released do not reflect any sort of incentive? I could easily see CBS Marketing, starting in 2011, offering an incentive to stations till December 31, 2013 being able to get and air the HD versions at the SD price till December 31, 2015, while also getting a complete set of SD copies. Kind of like those magazine subscriptions: 'Sign up now, get your next 24 issues at 25% of the newsstand price. Offer only good till December 31, 2014.'
And with TNG the HD rates may not have come into affect (or even sold seperately) till January 1, 2015.

 

[SPCTRE]

Half-Life 3 and The Last Guardian will release before DS9 on Blu-ray.

 

[Lance]

You seem to be basing your argument on home media is the only source of revenue that CBS has for the shows. Problem is, home media, whether it is physical or download, is a small area of revenue for them, since once a customer buys the product on DVD or Blu-ray, then that's it, it is a one-time source of revenue.

Naw, he's basing his argument on the fact that TNG failed to meet the expected sales targets, and that the people THEMSELVES who were behind the restoration publically admitted TNG-R failed and shut down any possibility of a follow-up with DS9/VOY. They were very positive to a point, then the high-definition project was just dead. Deader than Scotty in "The Changeling", deader than Chekov in "Spectre of the Gun", deader than Spock in "The Search for Spock". Unlike those guys, the odds are stacked against it being resurrected any time soon.

 

[Kor]

Maybe shows like this could get picked up by niche blu-ray distributors like Twilight Time for limited release.

But then each season would probably cost $250 a piece.

Kor

 

[Lynx]

^^
I don't think that I would like to pay that much for it.

As it is now, I would be happy if I could watch DS9 on functional standard DVD:s.

 

[tomswift2002]

Naw, he's basing his argument on the fact that TNG failed to meet the expected sales targets, and that the people THEMSELVES who were behind the restoration publically admitted TNG-R failed and shut down any possibility of a follow-up with DS9/VOY.

As far as I can tell it is only one producer who was brought in from an outside company to produce bonuses, that is saying that. That same producer also said that Home Video is dead in the same tweet conversation.

And it is an EXTREMELY WEAK argument to say that TNG-R failed due to low home video sales. There are multiple options for revenue for CBS with TNG-R that are much bigger sources than Blu-Ray/Home Video. There's conventional broadcasting, internet download (iTunes, Amazon Video on Demand), streaming (Amazon Video On Demand, CRAVE TV), and with conventional broadcasting and streaming CBS and the stations are able to sell advertising slots for a lot more than they can charge the average consumer for a download or Blu-ray.

But CBS is probably also presenting some funky Hollywood Accounting that was approved by the corporate boardroom, and has been ordered spread to everyone from the producers to the media. Also, you might want to remember that with TOS-R CBS released that to Syndication first, so they were getting their expected prices for it then, and when the HD-DVD/DVD and then the Blu-Ray's were released, CBS had already made a bunch of money on the episodes. But this time it's reversed: CBS decided to release TNG on Blu-Ray first before going to broadcast syndication. So CBS did not have that big sales revenue before they put TNG out on home video.

Do we know how TNG-R has done in terms of streaming? Broadcast? Download? I've searched the net and I haven't been able to find the answers.

But with 4k streaming already occurring, and 4k broadcasting on the horizon, CBS is going to need to offer DS9 in HD, because stations and people are not going to be interested in upconverted 480 video, and revenue potential for DS9 and Voyager is going to dry up.