Looking for quotes/excerpts: progress made in the Federation/Earth?

[Ragitsu]

Good evening.

As of late, I've been seeing the argument that societal progress (at least within humanity) in the future of Star Trek was only attained in Starfleet. To me, this is odd, because I know it isn't the case. However, I'd like to be able to push back with actual character quotations and bits of official writing. If you can share any relevant examples that come to mind...that would be fantastic.

 

[Finn]

That's a new one. There's plenty of references all over trek.

 

[Paul Weaver]

What do you mean by societal progress?

There's little non-starfleet Earth based lifestyle shown in Trek. Episodes to look at would include Home, Family, Homefront/Paradise Lost, Imagine in the Sand/Shadows and Symbols

 

[Timo]

Lack of references is also to be considered. The civilian side has no greater presence of greed, hunger, war, disease or money than the Starfleet side: references to all are either lacking (the general, default case); considered shocking (when greed is revealed as the motivation for a crime, say), or just exceptions to confirm the rule (civilians get ill just like Starfleeters, but it tends to be a rare space sickness rather than any of today's favorites).

One can read lack of references whichever way one pleases. How the writers want us to read the cases where the characters react to mundane hardships of today with astonishment or disgust (Picard to the profit motive of the "Starship Mine" thieves, say, or Nog/Jake or the LDS folks to the concept of money) is less ambiguous, and is clearly intended to show progress towards utopia.

It would be odd to have direct references of "Wow, we're so GOOD and WELL OFF!" in any context, including the Trek one. It's just that our heroes often slum it out in alien cultures or the Earth of their past, which is where these no-war, no-money, no-racism comments are made. So one better check all the time travel and holodeck stories, too!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ragitsu]

What do you mean by societal progress?

The absence of conventional forms of discrimination and lack of scarcity over the essentials (e.g., food, water, living space, healthcare and an education, for starters).

Both Trip and Troi - for instance - collectively and unambiguously mention that hunger/disease/poverty/war were eliminated on Earth. Those are two clear examples of what I had in mind; such examples refute the "Progress is limited to Starfleet." argument. I can also think of the time Uhura quietly asserted that archaic terms like the one "Abraham Lincoln" used do not bother people any more.

Over the last few years, I've noticed this push to chip away at the positive future of Star Trek. Assuming someone doesn't outright say "That's unrealistic." and bow out entirely, the goalposts will be shifted as needed. The latest tactic I've seen is "Only in Starfleet."...implying that you can only ensure ready access to free sustenance/shelter/education/healthcare if you are a member of a specific militaristic hierarchy.

There's a small moment in TNG, but I think it counts (minor spoilers for The Survivors): when the survivors of Rana IV insist on staying behind, Picard and Worf beam down with a matter replicator. Obviously, this is a potent piece of technology, but Picard is seemingly willing to part with it free of charge (because he's a decent fellow, because Federation policy insists on rendering assistance to colonists or some combination of the two aforementioned factors).

 

[1001001]

We know that in the future women don’t care about the firmness of their boobs.

I suppose that’s progress.

 

[fireproof78]

The latest tactic I've seen is "Only in Starfleet."...implying that you can only ensure ready access to free sustenance/shelter/education/healthcare if you are a member of a specific militaristic hierarchy.

That's a new one. Even if I don't entirely buy in to the full on optimism of Star Trek I certainly will not argue it didn't present a more positive future for all, not just Starfleet. That's kind of dumb, to be honest. That's not an egalitarian society, but an aristocracy.

We know that in the future women don’t care about the firmness of their boobs.

About freaking time!

 

[Vger23]

We know that in the future women don’t care about the firmness of their boobs.

I suppose that’s progress.

Yes…but the men might still care. We’d never know. Perhaps it will be addressed appropriately soon…

 

[Ragitsu]

That's a new one. Even if I don't entirely buy in to the full on optimism of Star Trek I certainly will not argue it didn't present a more positive future for all, not just Starfleet. That's kind of dumb, to be honest. That's not an egalitarian society, but an aristocracy.

It's an extension of a modern and vaguely Heinleinian argument: you should only be taken care of if you serve in the armed forces.

 

[fireproof78]

It's an extension of a modern and vaguely Heinleinian argument: you should only be taken care of if you serve in the armed forces.

I mean, I get that argument. It just doesn't fit what is presented on screen.

 

[1001001]

Look at Starbase Yorktown.

There's your Federation in all its glory.

(I know, I know...alternate timeline and whatnot...)

 

[Verteron]

Since you asked for some quotes:

Ben Sisko: Do you know what the trouble is? The trouble is Earth-on Earth there is no poverty, no crime, no war. You look out the window of Starfleet Headquarters and you see paradise. It's easy to be a saint in paradise

Deanna Troi: It unites humanity in a way no one ever thought possible when they realise they're not alone in the universe. Poverty, disease, war. They'll all be gone within the next fifty years

Jean-Luc Picard: The acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives. We work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity.

Jake Sisko: I'm human, I don't have any money.

Nog: It's not my fault that your species decided to abandon currency-based economics in favour of some philosophy of self-enhancement. ...

Jake Sisko: There's nothing wrong with our philosophy. We work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity

Tom Paris: When the new world economy took shape in the late twenty second century and money went the way of the dinosaur, Fort Knox was turned into a museum.

I could probably think of plenty more!

In terms of scenes depicting civilian life on Earth, there are a couple of examples of dwellings of people who are not in Starfleet and have never been in Starfleet (so ruling out 'veterans benefits' if Star Trek was some sort of Heinleinian nightmare):

• Joe Sisko's restaurant in New Orelans - he is definitely a civilian. Plenty of happy fulfilled people seemed to be dining there.
• Jake Sisko's house (alternate future) in Louisiana - he seemed to have a nice big house all to himself and didn't appear to be in need of much (except for his father ). Apparently 'affordable' for someone who published one successful novel and then spent the rest of his life doing science as a hobby.
• Dahj Asha's apartment in Greater Boston (although she turned out not to be human she thought she was a normal human living a normal life until the Zhat Vash showed up). Pretty nice place for someone who appears to have been a student (she'd just been accepted as a Daystrom Institute as a research fellow shortly before her death). Academics these days don't live in such fancy pads!

All of which seemed rather nice.

 

[Ragitsu]

In terms of scenes depicting civilian life on Earth, there are a couple of examples of dwellings of people who are not in Starfleet and have never been in Starfleet (so ruling out 'veterans benefits' if Star Trek was some sort of Heinleinian nightmare)

It's funny: in the actual novel Starship Troopers, it is made clear that you can either spend the necessary period serving with the military or contributing to the civic improvement division (my memory is fuzzy on the exact term, so go easy on me). I assumed the latter meant that you can contribute to the construction/restoration of roads, dams, parks, libraries and the like. In other words, you don't explicitly need to put on some boots and heft a rifle.

The popular image (which I used for convenience's sake) is that humankind is some sort of Klingon Empire-lite.

 

[Verteron]

It's funny: in the actual novel Starship Troopers, it is made clear that you can either spend the necessary period serving with the military or contributing to the civic improvement division (my memory is fuzzy on the exact term, so go easy on me). I assumed the latter meant that you can contribute to the construction/restoration of roads, dams, parks, libraries and the like. In other words, you don't explicitly need to put on some boots and heft a rifle.

In the novel you can rank your choices of services in which to complete your two years, Mobile Infantry is Rico's last choice but he's not qualified for anything else because of his poor math scores! If you want to serve, the Terran Federation will find you a job, regardless of your ability, including less militarised activities for people less suited to combat or with disqualifying disabilities (for example).

That said, there's not much to suggest the lives of civilians are particularly bad in the Starship Troopers universe - many of the students at Rico's school including Rico himself are from civilian families. Only veterans/citizens have franchise and can enter politics, but you can get a job, do business, go on vacation and acquire wealth and do just fine without completing service. The film hints at there being population controls for civilians (that it's easier to get a license to have more kids if you're a veteran) but I don't remember that being in the book.

 

[The Wormhole]

The only time I remember "only in Starfleet" being stated about anything in the franchise is the Prime Directive. Apparently, according to TNG Angel One, it's only Starfleet that needs to follow it, while anyone else in the Federation is apparently allowed to disregard it as they see fit.

Later TNG expands on this somewhat, to establish that the Federation's civilian exploration agency (the guys in the silver jumpsuits) also follow the Prime Directive, and I gather the implication is Nicolai Rozhenko was part of them as he was on a planetary survey, was required to follow the Prime Directive but wasn't Starfleet. But, still, I guess if you're not in Starfleet or a in the civilian exploration service, there's nothin to stop you from crashing a bunch of primitives and pretending to be a god.

 

[Verteron]

The only time I remember "only in Starfleet" being stated about anything in the franchise is the Prime Directive. Apparently, according to TNG Angel One, it's only Starfleet that needs to follow it, while anyone else in the Federation is apparently allowed to disregard it as they see fit.

Later TNG expands on this somewhat, to establish that the Federation's civilian exploration agency (the guys in the silver jumpsuits) also follow the Prime Directive, and I gather the implication is Nicolai Rozhenko was part of them as he was on a planetary survey, was required to follow the Prime Directive but wasn't Starfleet. But, still, I guess if you're not in Starfleet or a in the civilian exploration service, there's nothin to stop you from crashing a bunch of primitives and pretending to be a god.

My assumption on this is that the Prime Directive (aka General Order 1) is a Starfleet directive, but the Federation has equivalent non-interference laws for civilians, punishable through civilian criminal courts. It's just called something else.

Like the US Navy, if you murder a shipmate you'll be tried under military law in a military court. However it's also a civilian crime to kill, just a different set of laws.

 

[fireproof78]

In the novel you can rank your choices of services in which to complete your two years, Mobile Infantry is Rico's last choice but he's not qualified for anything else because of his poor math scores! If you want to serve, the Terran Federation will find you a job, regardless of your ability, including less militarised activities for people less suited to combat or with disqualifying disabilities (for example).

That said, there's not much to suggest the lives of civilians are particularly bad in the Starship Troopers universe - many of the students at Rico's school including Rico himself are from civilian families. Only veterans/citizens have franchise and can enter politics, but you can get a job, do business, go on vacation and acquire wealth and do just fine without completing service. The film hints at there being population controls for civilians (that it's easier to get a license to have more kids if you're a veteran) but I don't remember that being in the book.

It was not. The only difference between a civilian and a citizen is the ability to vote. Otherwise, civilians are perfectly content to live their lives, including Rico's dad who is hinted at being a very successful business man. But, yes, there are various federal services and guilds that support citizenship, including the Mobile Infantry.

 

[The Wormhole]

My assumption on this is that the Prime Directive (aka General Order 1) is a Starfleet directive, but the Federation has equivalent non-interference laws for civilians, punishable through civilian criminal courts. It's just called something else.

Thing is, according to Angel One it is okay for civilians to go to a planet and start a revolution since as civilians, they aren't obligated to follow the Prime Directive.

RAMSEY: Five months in a rescue pod no bigger than this room is an eternity I hope none of you will ever have to face. When we finally made it here, we thought we'd died and gone to heaven. You've seen the women of the planet. They're tall and strong and lovely. But after the newness wore off, we started to see how the men were treated. There's no votes. There's no opinions. There's no respect.
TASHA: None of which is your concern any longer, Mister Ramsey. Call the others in, please. It's time to leave.
RAMSEY: Despite their problems, Lieutenant, we happen to like it here on Angel One. We're not going anywhere.
TROI: But Mistress Beata
RAMSEY: Mistress Beata be damned! Her wish is not my command, and neither is yours. You can't force us to go.
DATA: Mister Ramsey is correct, Counsellor. The Odin was not a starship, which means her crew is not bound by the Prime Directive. If he and the others wish to stay here, there is absolutely nothing we can do about it.

That doesn't suggest there is a civilian requirement they are required to follow.

Since the Prime Directive seems to originate from Vulcan exploration rules, I suspect the Federation requires any organization or service which does engage in exploration to follow it, but everyone else can otherwise do as they please.

 

[Ragitsu]

Would the following line count?

KREM: That's rule number forty five. I've memorized all a hundred and seventy three, including the most important one. A man is only worth the sum of his possessions.
ARCHER: Back on my home world that kind of thinking almost destroyed our civilization.

 

[kkt]

It's funny: in the actual novel Starship Troopers, it is made clear that you can either spend the necessary period serving with the military or contributing to the civic improvement division (my memory is fuzzy on the exact term, so go easy on me). I assumed the latter meant that you can contribute to the construction/restoration of roads, dams, parks, libraries and the like. In other words, you don't explicitly need to put on some boots and heft a rifle.

The popular image (which I used for convenience's sake) is that humankind is some sort of Klingon Empire-lite.

I remember Starship Troopers, if you volunteered for service you volunteered for any service in which command might wish to send you. Maybe you're a clerk on Earth or a supply depot. Maybe you're assigned as a medical aid in a small rural hospital. Maybe you're in the Poor Bloody Infantry fighting the Bug War. But you don't get to decide, your skills and your luck determine where command sends you. Most people who volunteer did NOT end up in combat, but the important point for Heinlein was that everyone in service accepted that possibility.