"Logic extremists"

[David cgc]

Seems like being logical/unemotional would preclude becoming extremist, but what do I know?

I’m reminded about the bit in TMP where Spock dismissed Decker’s idea that V’Ger was firing warning shots because that would require compassion, an emotional consideration. Logic just depends on what fundamentals you choose, and if one of those isn’t the value of life (or the value of non-Vulcan life), violence would be the most straightforward solution to getting what you want, assuming you would win any struggle.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Seems like being logical/unemotional would preclude becoming extremist, but what do I know?

IDIC my ass.

Why? If you believe logic is be all and end all, you might have an extremist viewpoint.
When have we actually seen an Vulcan practice IDIC?

 

[Tuskin38]

I was reasaonbly psoitive about Discovery at the start... then it's eroded a bit. Then I heard the term "Logic extremists".

I don't see anything wrong with it. Isn't the first time in Trek history that there have been Vulcan's against outside influence.

 

[Crazyewok]

I like the idea the Romulans stole cloaking technology from the Klingons instead of the reverse. People keep forgetting the Romulans use their technology and not vice versa.

Well ENT had a romulan warbird cloaking so it seems the tec is known by them.

I am wonding though if the classic D7 design is a romulan design given to the Klingons rather than the other way around.

 

[SolarisOne]

And your problem is what? That a movement would have an extreme element? Logic can used to rationalize all sorts of behaviour.

Seems to me I remember Janeway telling Tuvok the very same thing.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Well ENT had a romulan warbird cloaking so it seems the tec is known by them.

I am wonding though if the classic D7 design is a romulan design given to the Klingons rather than the other way around.

I hope not. I want reminders Klingons are smart, not ideas they need to get their tech from the Mean Vulcans.

 

[Crazyewok]

Seems like being logical/unemotional would preclude becoming extremist, but what do I know?

IDIC my ass.

Why?

Not everyone into extremism/ xenophobia/ fascism are dumb, emotional hillbillys.

To some people in the top ranks or Nazi Germany and Communist russia, extermination and violence seemed like nessary and logical steps. They just viewed things through warped "logic". In fact soviet russia and maoist china was built around the concept of the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, justifying tens of millions of deaths.

 

[Michael]

To me the idea of Logic Extremists sounds rather realistic. Being logical doesn't automatically make you a pacifist. People who worship logic as the most important thing wouldn't necessarily value things like compassion or diversity. The whole thing also kind of reminds me of Nietzche's notion of the Übermensch, which got used by the Nazis to justify the holocaust.

 

[Borgminister]

IDIC my ass sounds like bad fanfic...

 

[T'Bonz]

One I most certainly don't want to read!

 

[Refuge]

Logic dictates that one must turn into a big red bomb and self-destruct.

 

[Crazyewok]

I hope not. I want reminders Klingons are smart, not ideas they need to get their tech from the Mean Vulcans.

Klingons getting ships from the romulans does not mean they are dumb.

Great powers supply weapons and resources to other countrys who are at war.

Look at lend lease in WW2. USA could not enter WW2 in 1939 as there was no popular support and its gutted military would of got its arsed kicked. So it supplied the UK another great power at war. With resources and some equipment. Hardly means the UK was dumb or weak, they just took all the help they could get.

Romulans could very well be doing the same. We know they hate the federation with a passion and the earth-romulan war would still be fresh as at 100 year, many vetrans would still be around and likely be leaders in the military and government (i am assuming romulans live as long as vulcans). But likely the romulans know they are not ready for a fight yet. So they will supply the Klingons in a attempt to weaken the federation as well as stir up trouble among federation member worlds.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Logic dictates that one must turn into a big red bomb and self-destruct.

Yep. Logic is just a tool. It can be used to justify all sorts of things.

 

[Rahul]

Vulcans aren't robots, they are a very diverse species as anyone else.

Considering how Sarek (the Mark Lenard-one, not Ben Cross or James Frain) was an almost radical pacifist, it's quite plausible there are other ones, searching more for aggressive and violent solutions. Vulcans are logical beings, and that try to act according to what is "logical" to them. That does not mean their idea of a "logical" solution has to be right in any way.

With all that being said: I really would prefer if Vulcans, as a whole, would be portrayed as less racist. It started with a one-off in DS9, in ENT they became almost unbearable dicks, ST09 first introduced the racist element ("your human mother"), and now this is portrayed as almost a central part of their civilisation - "oh, ONE non-Vulcan is already one too much".
Fuck that.

Vulcans aren't elves. Did anyone has ever heard of "IDIC"? Infinite Diversity in Infinite Cultures? How this is a central theme for all Vulcans? That doesn't really mesh with a primarily racist culture. I really fucking hate that.

 

[Crazyewok]

Logic dictates that one must turn into a big red bomb and self-destruct.

Was it even a vulcan?

Again romulans benifit from a long war between the federation and Klingons.

Half the vulcan extremists may not even be vulcan.

 

[Kemaiku]

Was it even a vulcan?

Again romulans benifit from a long war between the federation and Klingons.

Half the vulcan extremists may not even be vulcan.

It doesn't help that there's not really a cohesive "Vulcan" race. In that there are already splinter groups all over the planet and out in space with different interpretations of Surak's teachings. There may still be Rihansu that did not leave with the other (now) Romulans that follow neither Vulcan or Romulan philosophy and have turned into something else in those 1800 years of isolation.

 

[Nerys Myk]

T09 first introduced the racist element ("your human mother"), and now this is portrayed as almost a central part of their civilisation - "oh, ONE non-Vulcan is already one too much".
Fuck that.

It was introduced in TOS and driven home in TAS

Vulcans aren't elves. Did anyone has ever heard of "IDIC"? Infinite Diversity in Infinite Cultures? How this is a central theme for all Vulcans? That doesn't really mesh with a primarily racist culture. I really fucking hate that.

Good question, since Vulcans are rarely shown to practice it.

 

[Rahul]

It was introduced in TOS and driven home in TAS

When was it introduced in TOS? They were hella' secluded. But that might have been, because we only ever saw ritual places (aka 'not cities", aka "not were people lived', aka 'not were strangers would usually be'). But they weren't a bunch of racist assholes as far as I remember.

Admittedly, I never watched a whole lot of TAS, so no idea there. But TOS/TOS movies/TNG/VOY? Naw.

 

[Nerys Myk]

When was it introduced in TOS? They were hella' secluded. But that might have been, because we only ever saw ritual places (aka 'not cities", aka "not were people lived', aka 'not were strangers would usually be'). But they weren't a bunch of racist assholes as far as I remember.

Admittedly, I never watched a whole lot of TAS, so no idea there. But TOS/TOS movies/TNG/VOY? Naw.

Spock's remarks about humans. T'Pau's questioning of Spock's choice of Kirk and McCoy as "groomsmen". Sarek's attitude towards the Tellerites. As for TAS:

BOY: Earther! Barbarian! Emotional Earther! You're a Terran, Spock. You could never be a true Vulcan.
Y SPOCK: That is not true. My father
BOY 2: Your father brought shame to Vulcan. He married a human.
(Young Spock lunges at him, but they dodge him easily)
BOY: You haven't even mastered a simple Vulcan neck pinch yet, Earther.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

When was it introduced in TOS?

In "Journey To Babel" (TOS)...

AMANDA: When you were five years old and came home stiff-lipped, anguished, because the other boys tormented you, saying that you weren't really Vulcan, I watched you, knowing that inside that the human part of you was crying, and I cried, too.

Admittedly, I never watched a whole lot of TAS, so no idea there. But TOS/TOS movies/TNG/VOY? Naw.

How convenient that you left out DS9 and ENT, there...