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News Live-Action ‘Cowboy Bebop’ tv series in the works

Christopher said:
What????? The Jericho 941 is used in many countries around the world, including South Korea. Many Israeli-made weapons are used around the world, most famously the Uzi. Rambo carried an Uzi; do you assume he was Jewish? People don't choose their weapons based on their religion or their national heritage. They choose them for their efficacy at killing people, which is something that most religions frown on. I mean, good grief, gunpowder was invented in China, but that didn't preclude Europeans from adopting it.
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No, but with fictional characters, particularly in hand drawn media, it can sometimes be a choice made by the creators as a symbol. Sometimes it isn’t. Sometimes it is. Especially when you pair it up with other things. Some people did read Spike as Jewish. Some as German.
Bebop has tons of things in it, a lot of Americana particularly.
Every last character is an immigrant, and it is part of the nature of the story, so again, that’s something that will inform some peoples viewing of the story.
Western. Exploitation. Spoof. SF. Espionage thriller. Noir. Heist. Cyberpunk.
There’s a ton of stuff in there, enough for people to take all sorts from, and enough to make it hard to pin down any specifics as anything other than choices made by not only the creators, but also the viewer.

Edit because had to go answer door:
This goes back to above… if Motoko Kusanagi can be interpreted as Japanese because of her name, logically Spike can be interpreted as German or Jewish because of his. In neither case is this a must. Spike is of course physically partially based on two Japanese Men, and one Chinese American, but that’s mostly behind the scenes info, and in story we know he was born on Mars.

Edit because I had a thought based on this:
Just think, in a parallel universe, Alexander Dreymon was cast as Spike.
 
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It's unsurprising that people people have/would put together a name like Spike Spiegel and an Israeli-made weapon and read the two as perhaps supporting an idea about Spike's unstated background, regardless of what the original author intended. When someone is adapting and making choices there are always things you have to decide: does that particular name or item mean anything literally or symbolically or not? Does it matter to the show if we think it does? If we change it, what meaning might that have? Or is it an unimportant detail?

That's the forest I was pointing to, not the tree of that particular weapon.
 
Maurice said:
It's unsurprising that people people have/would put together a name like Spike Spiegel and an Israeli-made weapon and read the two as perhaps supporting an idea about Spike's unstated background, regardless of what the original author intended.
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That's not what you said before. You said "In the anime it's implied." To say "implied" is to assert that you believe it was the creator's intent. Now you're walking that back and claiming it's just what some unspecific "people" have inferred. Way to move the goalposts.


Maurice said:
When someone is adapting and making choices there are always things you have to decide:
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And "Will this go against what somebody out there in the audience reads into the show?" should absolutely not be one of them. There will always be a wide range of different, conflicting audience perceptions of a work of fiction, so any attempt to please everyone or meet everyone's expectations is a futile effort. A professional's job is to apply one's own judgment, experience, and skill to determine what one thinks will work best. Sports coaches don't poll the audience for what plays to use. Restaurant chefs don't invite their customers to consult on the recipes.
 
Christopher said:
That's not what you said before. You said "In the anime it's implied." To say "implied" is to assert that you believe it was the creator's intent. Now you're walking that back and claiming it's just what some unspecific "people" have inferred. Way to move the goalposts.




And "Will this go against what somebody out there in the audience reads into the show?" should absolutely not be one of them. There will always be a wide range of different, conflicting audience perceptions of a work of fiction, so any attempt to please everyone or meet everyone's expectations is a futile effort. A professional's job is to apply one's own judgment, experience, and skill to determine what one thinks will work best. Sports coaches don't poll the audience for what plays to use. Restaurant chefs don't invite their customers to consult on the recipes.
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There’s a enough there, and the writing is smart enough, that it is a perfectly logical assumption. Heck, there’s probably an essay to be had on Spike as a variant on the legend of the wandering Jew, and plenty of religious iconography bounced around in the series besides.
But this is turning into Death of the Author, and that gets confusing real fast.
He’s a borderline secret agent style archetype with an Israeli pistol and curly black hair. It’s not like assuming he’s a Scotsman because we see him drink whiskey. XD
 
Maurice said:
In the anime it's implied that Spike Spiegel is probably Jewish (and maybe German).
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Just looked back at what I wrote the other day and realized that in editing the reply before I posted it I had written not quite what I intended. What I meant to say was in the anime one can read in an implication that Spike Spiegel is possibly Jewish (and maybe German). Etc. I don’t know what Watanabe intended.

But I stand by my point about all the choices required by the act of adaptation.
 
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Maurice said:
What I meant to say was in the anime one can read in an implication that Spike Spiegel is possibly Jewish (and maybe German). Etc.
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"One can read in an implication" is a contradiction in terms. If you read something into someone else's words, they do not imply it; you infer it. What you mean to say is "one can draw an inference."

Although I see no way that any remotely rational person would infer that Spike was Jewish just because he used an Israeli-made weapon. That's like assuming I'm a Shintoist because I own several pieces of Sony audio equipment.
 
Christopher said:
"One can read in an implication" is a contradiction in terms. If you read something into someone else's words, they do not imply it; you infer it. What you mean to say is "one can draw an inference."

Although I see no way that any remotely rational person would infer that Spike was Jewish just because he used an Israeli-made weapon. That's like assuming I'm a Shintoist because I own several pieces of Sony audio equipment.
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"Any remotely rational person"? Kinda toeing that line between post and poster, aren't we?
 
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Christopher said:
"One can read in an implication" is a contradiction in terms.
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OMG I used the wrong word. The absolute horror. But, hey, grab any any and all ammo you can, no matter how small caliber. We all see what you’re doing.

You remain not at all interested in the actual discussion at hand, which was about changes during adaptation. You are nitpicking because AS EVER, you are only interested in being proven right on picayune particulars.

Christopher said:
Although I see no way that any remotely rational person would infer[…]
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The not so sub subtext of which is anyone who holds a contrary position is irrational.

Remember upthread when I said I would not engage with you? This is why. Same old broken record. I give it a 5. It’s got no beat and you can’t dance to it.
 
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Christopher said:
"One can read in an implication" is a contradiction in terms. If you read something into someone else's words, they do not imply it; you infer it. What you mean to say is "one can draw an inference."

Although I see no way that any remotely rational person would infer that Spike was Jewish just because he used an Israeli-made weapon. That's like assuming I'm a Shintoist because I own several pieces of Sony audio equipment.
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Are you a fictional character, created as part of a genre mash up with subtextual inclinations? Because you know, different rules apply.
Though admittedly, Picard is the most English Frenchman since the conquest.
 
So, all the initial hubbub having died down, I finally saw this. I quite liked it. I'd give the first season an 8/10 and I actually rather hope the fan petition succeeds. It would be nice to see this cast get to do more.

It's far from a one-to-one copy of the anime, obviously, and as live-action sci-fi it can't quite manage the scope of visual inventiveness that characterized the source material. But it's still damned impressive for the budget and good fun if you're willing to just enjoy it on its own terms -- not a difficult proposition for me given that it's some years since I saw the original series.

It captures the spirit of Bebop and offers up new takes on some of the characters that actually improve them and add depth. Cho is an excellent Spike Spiegel, probably the closest to the original anime template, and reliably delivers on both the comedy and the action-hero material with equal aplomb. Shakir's Jet Black straight-man act is pretty much pitch-perfect, but it's intriguing and often enjoyable that they fleshed out his background a bit and that he's a family man now, giving him a lot to lose (and the story makes quite a bit of mileage out of this, especially in the final act). Pineda's Faye Valentine is frankly a more interesting, likable, and fleshed-out character than the original would ever become.

Vicious and Julia, really background props for Spike in the original series, are actual characters here with their own arcs, and are much the better for it. Vicious in particular is vastly more fun as an unhinged gangster with unresolved daddy issues -- he reminds me of a roided-up version of Kirill from Eastern Promises -- than the one-note Enigmatic Edgelord of old. And Julia's transformation into an author of her own fate, and eventual controller of the Syndicate, is cool as fuck. I loved it, and that we got a rich look into the Syndicate's culture and internal dynamics as a part of it all.

Some great supporting players, too. I don't often notice animal actors, I have to admit, but the dog playing Ein is perfectly Ein. The crew at Anna's are adorable, and the various one-off antagonists and bounties we encounter -- most of whom I recognize from the original, a couple I don't, but like I said it's been a while -- all deliver. And damn was that glimpse we finally get of Radical Ed at the end of Ep. 9 tantalizing. I don't see what's not to like.

If it ends with Season 1, well, at least that'll be a really cool artifact of Bebop-related media to look back on.
 
BigJake said:
So, all the initial hubbub having died down, I finally saw this. I quite liked it. I'd give the first season an 8/10 and I actually rather hope the fan petition succeeds. It would be nice to see this cast get to do more.

It's far from a one-to-one copy of the anime, obviously, and as live-action sci-fi it can't quite manage the scope of visual inventiveness that characterized the source material. But it's still damned impressive for the budget and good fun if you're willing to just enjoy it on its own terms -- not a difficult proposition for me given that it's some years since I saw the original series.

It captures the spirit of Bebop and offers up new takes on some of the characters that actually improve them and add depth. Cho is an excellent Spike Spiegel, probably the closest to the original anime template, and reliably delivers on both the comedy and the action-hero material with equal aplomb. Shakir's Jet Black straight-man act is pretty much pitch-perfect, but it's intriguing and often enjoyable that they fleshed out his background a bit and that he's a family man now, giving him a lot to lose (and the story makes quite a bit of mileage out of this, especially in the final act). Pineda's Faye Valentine is frankly a more interesting, likable, and fleshed-out character than the original would ever become.

Vicious and Julia, really background props for Spike in the original series, are actual characters here with their own arcs, and are much the better for it. Vicious in particular is vastly more fun as an unhinged gangster with unresolved daddy issues -- he reminds me of a roided-up version of Kirill from Eastern Promises -- than the one-note Enigmatic Edgelord of old. And Julia's transformation into an author of her own fate, and eventual controller of the Syndicate, is cool as fuck. I loved it, and that we got a rich look into the Syndicate's culture and internal dynamics as a part of it all.

Some great supporting players, too. I don't often notice animal actors, I have to admit, but the dog playing Ein is perfectly Ein. The crew at Anna's are adorable, and the various one-off antagonists and bounties we encounter -- most of whom I recognize from the original, a couple I don't, but like I said it's been a while -- all deliver. And damn was that glimpse we finally get of Radical Ed at the end of Ep. 9 tantalizing. I don't see what's not to like.

If it ends with Season 1, well, at least that'll be a really cool artifact of Bebop-related media to look back on.
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That’s pretty much my take on it too. If anything, I actually like it a little bit more than the anime, which is probably sacrilege.
 
BigJake said:
Cho is an excellent Spike Spiegel, probably the closest to the original anime template, and reliably delivers on both the comedy and the action-hero material with equal aplomb. Shakir's Jet Black straight-man act is pretty much pitch-perfect, but it's intriguing and often enjoyable that they fleshed out his background a bit and that he's a family man now, giving him a lot to lose (and the story makes quite a bit of mileage out of this, especially in the final act). Pineda's Faye Valentine is frankly a more interesting, likable, and fleshed-out character than the original would ever become.
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I agree with most of this, but I think that while Cho's Spike is close to the template in some ways, in other ways he's more social, less cold, more genuinely engaged with his crewmates. In the anime, Spike and Faye barely tolerate each other, and Spike and Jet have more of a loose collaboration they're used to than a real friendship, but here all three hit it off well and really bond as a team. Which I figure was a case of writing to the actors' strengths and personalities, since it would've been a waste of Cho's charisma if he'd remained as detached and stoic as anime Spike.
 
Christopher said:
I agree with most of this, but I think that while Cho's Spike is close to the template in some ways, in other ways he's more social, less cold, more genuinely engaged with his crewmates. In the anime, Spike and Faye barely tolerate each other, and Spike and Jet have more of a loose collaboration they're used to than a real friendship, but here all three hit it off well and really bond as a team. Which I figure was a case of writing to the actors' strengths and personalities, since it would've been a waste of Cho's charisma if he'd remained as detached and stoic as anime Spike.
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Good point, I'd concur with that assessment.
 
Burning Hearts of Qo'nOs said:
I didn't want to admit it but I feel the same way lol.

Faye is just too fun.
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Yup.
It’s like… all the things I liked in the anime are here in the live action,(style, setting, and for sure the music) but some of the things I didn’t like (basically the syndicate etc) or found dull, are actually interesting here, and the characters are more developed.
The changes from the anime are all *good* changes, and considering it’s an adaptation, and jazz is all about picking up a theme and riffing on it, it really works well.
There are episodes of the anime I will fall asleep in, and that’s not true of the live action.
Vicious is actually extremely interesting, more of a victim, all of it just gels better. I think partially because rather than a Japanese pastiche of aspects of Western culture, the live action is almost commenting back on that pastiche and with more familiarity of what is a thing to lampoon, and what is just a clumsy stereotype.
Also, the Lonny-tunes eco terrorists just hit different now, what with Xtinction Rebellion being a thing.
Coulda done with less grim, but that’s a personal thing for me, and really it’s in line with the good Dredd movie, which works, because Dredd and Bebop are like cousins. Both things that pastiche a certain kind of Americana and SF, and comment on them, whilst also being from cultures that are totally different to, yet somehow colonised by and subservient to, the thing they are riffing on.
 
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