Lit nacelle trenches?

[Mark 2000]

Many years ago I played with the idea in Photoshop and did some images with blue or cyan lit nacelles along the inboard trenches. To me it just never looked right, but then I could easily be conditioned to seeing it the way it has always been onscreen.

If I ever get around to building it I'm considering just lighting it white with the photoetch mesh in front of it. Could be a nice. subtle effect, but I'd have to see it to decide.

 

[Warped9]

 

[jpv2000]

^That^ looks awesome!

Thanks, Warped9.

 

[Maurice]

I've seen the memo, I can't remember where. I think it was from Roddenberry to Justman asking how much it would cost to add the lights to the trench. I think it was around $300 back then and the money was not available.

Somewhere? There aren't that many places production memos have been printed.

 

[trevanian]

TMOST has some memos about adding lights (I think to the windows), but I don't even remember them addressing the nacellecaps in that book.

 

[Forbin]

I followed the development of the R2 1/350 Enterprise on Hobbytalk as well as received updates on the kit's progress (prior to release) because I was one of the 1701 Club members to get a Premire version of the kit. Gary Kerr, who researched the TOS E for the model (and is now working on the Galileo shuttlecraft kit) mentioned that there had been some talk of adding a light effect to the inboard sides of the nacelles, but it was deemed to expensive to go back and rework the 11 footer so the idea was dropped. It doesn't look like they were hellbent on doing it, but for the sake of completion R2 decided to include the option for lit nacelles for those who might like to explore the "what if" option.

I enjoy thinking that was because of my suggestion to Gary that they make the trench grills separate parts molded in clear, which triggered an insane tirade from another poster who was an "expert" on plastic molding and insisted such a thing would make the kit cost skyrocket and the nacelles become too fragile. That poster's tirades pissed Gary off and made him WANT to do the trenches as separate parts just to piss HIM off.

 

[Metryq]

"Blue spill" can happen in a variety of ways—not just when the model is "too close" to the background. First, one must understand what bluescreening is all about.

If one tries to make a composite shot, like the above shot of the Enterprise in front of a planet, by taking a double exposure, then then the two will be seen through each other, like ghosts. However, if one can "cut out" the Enterprise and stick it in front of the planet, the two won't show through each other. Masks to control this sort of exposure are called "mattes." When the mattes move, it is called a traveling matte. The oldest way of creating traveling mattes is with rotoscope, a manual technique named after a device invented by animator Max Fleischer.

Bluescreen is just one of perhaps hundreds of different "automatic" traveling matte techniques invented by filmmakers. Bluescreen became popular because it would be done with common film stock, and did not require any special lights, film stocks, or other exotic materials.

Bluescreen works on the very simple idea that blue things look dark through a red filter, and red things look dark through a blue filter. Take note of the blue background in the red and blue plates (top row) in the image below.

Now take note of what happens when the red plate is turned into a negative: the background becomes "white." Since the foreground subject is dark and light in opposite areas from the blue plate, placing the two plates on top of each other (called "bi-packing") results in the silhouette in the middle frame. This is one half of the matte.

Since film is clear where it appears white in this example, light will pass through. To create the composite, the black-on-white matte is bi-packed with the background and rephotographed. The film is rewound (without developing) and run for another pass, this time with the white-on-black matte bi-packed with the foreground subject. When the film is developed, one has a composite shot with no ghosting.

Of course, it's easier said than done. Bluescreen composites can suffer from a number of artifacts, like matte lines, "jigsawing" and other alignment problems. I won't go into detail about all of that here. In a pre-digital age, good mattes were a combination of art and science.

The "bite" taken out of the Enterprise's warp engine (top) resulted from some form of "spill light." Light might have bounced off the studio floor and shone on the darker underside of the model. One can try to control spill with additional white lights, or lights with a faintly orange filter in them, but then the model appears to glow, as it has no actual shadows. "Spill" might also result from "specularity," as 3D modelers call it. Take note of the composite below. The table has a shiny finish, which allows us to see the white screen as it appeared on the set.

(The DP should have used a black screen. Then, budget permitting, the compositor could have exposed the "video" image inverted and blurred out on the table to make it look like a reflection.)

If even a little blue appeared on the Enterprise model, the lab tech would have a hard time extracting a clean matte. The solid black mattes of the woman shown above (last two frames) were printed on "litho" film, which is absolute black or white. (Black areas on color film are actually semi-transparent, and thus no good for mattes.) Any gray areas would cut to either black or white, or produce speckly noise—like the bite taken out of the warp engine.

Today's compositors, working with digital tools, have the ultimate in control. I've gabbed too long already, so I won't go into digital tools. However, if you want to know how the old-timers did it (pardon the pun), I highly recommend THE TECHNIQUE OF SPECIAL EFFECTS CINEMATOGRAPHY by Raymond Fielding, Focal Press. The book is available in print and ebook format.

 

[mach7]

I've seen the memo, I can't remember where. I think it was from Roddenberry to Justman asking how much it would cost to add the lights to the trench. I think it was around $300 back then and the money was not available.

Somewhere? There aren't that many places production memos have been printed.

Yah, I know.

I'll try and find it. I seem to remember it was in the last few years. It might have been in one of the R2/Enterprise articles Gary Kerr wrote for Sci-Fi and Fantasy. I'll check.

 

[Warped9]

I've seen the memo, I can't remember where. I think it was from Roddenberry to Justman asking how much it would cost to add the lights to the trench. I think it was around $300 back then and the money was not available.

Somewhere? There aren't that many places production memos have been printed.

Yah, I know.

I'll try and find it. I seem to remember it was in the last few years. It might have been in one of the R2/Enterprise articles Gary Kerr wrote for Sci-Fi and Fantasy. I'll check.

Thats right. Thats where I recall reading it as well.

 

[publiusr]

The trenches should be an easier lighting job than the naclle domes. In not too many years curved displays will be the rage, and it might be easier to do a computer graphic skin on a dome shaped screen showing the TOS effect rather than having an actual electromechanical system.

 

[Forbin]

^Well THAT's no fun for a modeler.

 

[Maurice]

It also wouldn't look right because the image would be "flat" against the inside surface of the dome and would have no dimension or shift from different viewing angles.

 

[Forbin]

I had to dimension a shirt once, when I designed a T-shirt for an event at work. Not sure how that relates to bussard domes, though.

 

[Mark 2000]

The trenches should be an easier lighting job than the naclle domes. In not too many years curved displays will be the rage, and it might be easier to do a computer graphic skin on a dome shaped screen showing the TOS effect rather than having an actual electromechanical system.

I think one of the joys of this kit is that the mechanism is nearly identical to the actual shooting model down to led covers being shaped like Christmas lights. The only problem I can see is the noise of the motors.

 

[Forbin]

They're not that loud, IMHO. Might get annoying if you leave them running for, say an entire evening during a get-together. The model might melt at that point too.

Here's how they sound on mine:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Cglu9L_JrI

 

[Mark 2000]

For anyone who was actually interested in this besides me, after looking around hobbytalk.com some more I found a quote of the memo but not the exact source. Gary Kerr wrote that he read this in a price quote for work on the model:

This was included in a estimate from the Howard A. Anderson Company, dated April 6, 1966, to convert the 2nd Pilot model into the Production version. The exact quote is:

"13. Light source on inside area of both pods. $ 300.00"

The deal breaker was the fact that the existing nacelles, then referred to as "Pods", could not accommodate the planned lighting:

"Items 13 & 14 - in the event that opening up the sheet metal pods for this work, the metal goes out of shape to render further work on existing pods useless - new pods will have to be made."

The exact nature of the desired lighting effect isn't known, but if I were to add lighting behind the inboard screens I'd probably go with some shade of blue or purple to be consistent with subsequent starships.

Gary

 

[alensatemybuick]

I am very curious abotu this memo, was wondering if it was indeed reprinted in one of the "Sci-Fi and Fantasy Modeller" magazine articles writte by Gary Kerr, and if so, which issue / volume? It looks like there were 4 parts written, starting with Volume 26; these are not that easy to find. Appreciate any and all info. Thanks! -Scott

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

Whoa ... necrothread back from the dead.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

I am very curious abotu this memo, was wondering if it was indeed reprinted in one of the "Sci-Fi and Fantasy Modeller" magazine articles writte by Gary Kerr, and if so, which issue / volume? It looks like there were 4 parts written, starting with Volume 26; these are not that easy to find. Appreciate any and all info. Thanks! -Scott

Hey man, you're new around these parts. It's best to start a new thread because they frown upon digging up years old threads. Also, you'll have a better chance of your question being seen.

Also, welcome to the BBS!

 

[Warped9]

Because of the evidence that lighting the inboard trenches was once given consideration Polar Lights included that option in their 1/350 scale TOS E model kit.