Link Between Discovery and a Contentious Element of the Kelvin films

[Hythlodeus]

get rid of his ridiculous mustache and his uniform and not many people would recognize Hitler.

He could even use the same rhetoric he used in the 30s and a large percentage of the population would sadly agree with him, but that's another story.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

And then being the same universe, splitting in 2233 and sharing the same past is Bob Orci's theory and nothing more.

The difference is, there's evidence (dialogue) to back that up.

Plus it has the added advantage of actually making sense. Logically speaking, how can time travel affect the past as well as the future?

 

[Hythlodeus]

The difference is, there's evidence (dialogue) to back that up.

Plus it has the added advantage of actually making sense. Logically speaking, how can time travel affect the past as well as the future?

People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey stuff.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Since there is no such thing as a "non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint", I think we're good.

 

[Dukhat]

And then being the same universe, splitting in 2233 and sharing the same past is Bob Orci's theory and nothing more.

Not quite. What Pegg postulated is never mentioned on screen, while the split changing things only after 2233 is.

 

[Timo]

And all of it is somebody's "theory" in the end anyway.'

That only things after 2233 would have changed is what Spock comes up with, in-universe. But does that include Kirk looking different from Prime, or is that part just movie magic?

That things before and after 2233 would change because time travel connects everything is a theory deriving from how Star Trek works. But time travel works differently with different time machines. Again, we can't even tell whether Kirk's eye color "really" changed, let alone whether Spock going to see his 7-yr-old self would be endangered by Nero, or be relevant in any way.

That nothing would have changed but the historical events is a theory that is not at major odds with anything seen, because we have to squint anyway whenever we watch Trek, any Trek. It's possibly supported by Spock Prime recognizing Kirk 2.0, and not contradicted by anything much, but in the end it's as theoretical as these musings get.

All of the above works. None of it needs to.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Guy Gardener]

Plus it has the added advantage of actually making sense. Logically speaking, how can time travel affect the past as well as the future?

Because TOS/Movie era Kirk never goes back in time, all the times he went back in time... Although some canon seen in trek says that TOS/Movie era Kirk is protected while moving back in time, outside of time, even if the future he came from no longer exists.

 

[Tuskin38]

Not quite. What Pegg postulated is never mentioned on screen, while the split changing things only after 2233 is.

The newest Star Trek Encyclopedia also echos what Simon said.
I wonder who thought of it first.

 

[Dukhat]

The newest Star Trek Encyclopedia also echos what Simon said.
I wonder who thought of it first.

It might have been Okuda; it might have been Pegg. Either way, it’s still not canon.

 

[F. King Daniel]

The difference is, there's evidence (dialogue) to back that up.

Plus it has the added advantage of actually making sense. Logically speaking, how can time travel affect the past as well as the future?

How does beaming Captain Christopher into himself solve anything? What was that dream sequence in STIV about? How did the Temporal Cold War begin with an event that occurred inside the resulting timeline? What the hell was "Time Squared" about?

Effects of Nero's time travel going both ways explains everything. And this from someone who argued and argued for the 2233 split for years... until I realised the movies and TV shows are made by entirely different teams with entirely different ideas about how the Trek universe should be. And all that before I actually saw an episode of Discovery, which is a reboot unto itself with "prime universe" slapped onto it for marketing reasons.

 

[zenophite]

It's an interesting bit of speculation from the perspective of fandom wanting to find a satisfying in-universe explanation for the studio casting someone simply because he happens to be flavor of the month.

 

[Kor]

I thought the character was just supposed to be "John Harrison" in the beginning, and some bigwig said they had to make it Khan.

Kor

 

[XCV330]

"This is Khan, can you hear me?" -Voq son of Fandango

 

[KBEnterprise]

As far as I'm concerned, the Khan of the Kelvin universe is a white British guy. It's the simplest and best explanation.

Well, that's okay, but it's not what is canon according to the movie.

Yeah, it was all on them, the writers from the movie didn't tell them to.

Roberto Orci was a consultant on the comics and I believe he really did pitch the idea to the writers.

I've always taken the 'Kelvin past' = 'Prime past' theory with a grain of salt, though. It's important to remember that, assuming as much time travel happens in the Kelvin-verse as it does in the Prime-verse, the past is likely changed significantly from its Prime counterpart!

 

[WarpFactorZ]

get rid of his ridiculous mustache and his uniform and not many people would recognize Hitler.

He could even use the same rhetoric he used in the 30s and a large percentage of the population would sadly agree with him, but that's another story.

But Hitler is a bad example, because he's still quite visible in the collective social memory because the essence of what he represented -- Fascism and Naziism -- is still an issue 70 years later. It's been hundreds of years since Khan did his thing, and it's long since been put out of memory. Would you recognize Napoleon walking down the street in modern attire?

 

[Hythlodeus]

But Hitler is a bad example, because he's still quite visible in the collective social memory because the essence of what he represented -- Fascism and Naziism -- is still an issue 70 years later. It's been hundreds of years since Khan did his thing, and it's long since been put out of memory. Would you recognize Napoleon walking down the street in modern attire?

Napoleon Dyamite maybe, Napoleon Bonaparte not. But there wasno extensive medi coverage of his face at that time, whereas in the 1930s and 1940s, as well as in 1997 we had more visual data than oil paintings

 

[DaveyNY]

The Kelvin timeline is clearly a universe where everyone is a hotter, hunkier version of themselves. Chances are everyone on the trekbbs is hotter and hunkier in the kelvinverse trekbbs

I'd settle for just being a lot younger, like Chekov.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Well, that's okay, but it's not what is canon according to the movie.

What does Into Darkness establish about Khan's past that contradicts him being a white British guy?

 

[Hythlodeus]

The Kelvin timeline is clearly a universe where everyone is a hotter, hunkier version of themselves. Chances are everyone on the trekbbs is hotter and hunkier in the kelvinverse trekbbs

that's clearly impossible, in my case

 

[Kor]

What does Into Darkness establish about Khan's past that contradicts him being a white British guy?

Nothing in the context of the movie itself as a self-contained story, excluding non-"cannnnnnnnnon" tie-in materials.

Kor