You don't get out much, do you.
Lindelof On Eve Scene (minor spoilers, hysteria, hyperbole)
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You don't get out much, do you.
You're comparing a 2-second shot of a woman wearing the equivalent of a conservative bikini to perverted anime that shows underage girls wearing skimpy clothes with lots of convenient angles? Seriously, one of these things is not AT ALL like the other. Why stop there? I'm sure you could find a way to compare it to tentacle hentai.
And I despise the idea that people can only get naked if they are going to have sex. Jesus, what kind of prudish society do we live in?
We call that "circling the drain."Like Admiral Buzzkill said above, the fanbase is getting older. Usually, as you get older you get more conservative for some reason.
It's an interesting phenomenon.
I'd like to believe I'm falling more towards the center as I grow old.
This might explain why Star Trek has gone from "Where no man has gone before" to "Where no politically correct man will dare go."
Yeah it's the handwringing I feel the need to slap down.
I'm of the camp that it was gratuitous but not offensive, it was just silly. And being a Trek apologist I have made the entire scene about Kirk and Carol's foreshadowing so it works a charm
And, to be fair, "perverted" might not be the right word when discussing doodled characters.
As someone who lived in Japan, that sort of manga and anime is drawn and (for lack of a better word) written for adults. It's a genre specifically catering to people who like that sort of thing (like hentai, yuri, etc) and written for different ages. I'm not judging what someone likes to read, but I find the comparison between that and this one small character scene ridiculously overstated. I agree with the others that it may or may not feel necessary to the story, but it's not at all on the same level as that type of manga or anime.
I personally found it gratuitous but not overly objectionable. It's the sort of thing I roll my eyes at and move on. But I do think that people here are too easily dismissive of those who did find it offensive, and there's been exaggeration as a reactionary thing when there doesn't need to be. Your personality and experiences have led to you forming a certain opinion on this matter. My own experiences have led me to form largely the same opinion about this particular scene. It's something I'm willing to shrug off.
But there's no reason to belittle and deride those who believe otherwise. No, this is not the end of the world. Yes, it could be indicative of problems with the portrayal of women in media. I don't understand why there isn't room here for both opinions without feeling the need to prove the other as ridiculous and wrong.
This.
Well... proving others as wrong and ridiculous tends to remove ridiculous arguments from the discussion.
But seriously, it's fine that others disagree with me. But I find sweeping, extremist statements worthy of both reasoned arguments and ridicule for several reasons, not the least of which is that people use them to effect social changes that affect us all, and restrict both progress and liberty.
...or maybe it's just me.
I like Lindelof, partly because he does this kind of thing.
He's right, too - apologizing for Alice Eve's scene in the shuttle was inappropriate and diminishes her performance unfairly.
He's right, too - apologizing for Alice Eve's scene in the shuttle was inappropriate and diminishes her performance unfairly.
I posted this in the thread about the Cumberbatch shower scene, but since the bulk of the post is more relevant to this thread, I'll repost it here too:
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Apart from obviously being there for titillation too, the Carol Marcus underwear scene did serve a purpose. Throughout the preceding parts of the film, we see Kirk being confident to the point of arrogance and extremely flirty with women. He was having a meaningless one night stand with the cat babes, he gave F-Me glances to the women at Starfleet HQ and the bar, and he was making juvenile comments about Carol's appearance when she boarded the shuttle to join the crew on Enterprise. But now he tries the same schtick by glancing at Carol while she changes, and she'll have none of it. She's not intimidated or impressed by his glances, and gives him nothing in return except the sign to quit gawking and an order to turn around.
Kirk is flustered by this and doesn't quite know how to react, except to do what she tells him. This plays into his continuing decline in confidence throughout the film as he is rejected or slapped down by his superiors and peers. He's not able to get by on winging it or impressing people with his overconfidence any more. He has to work to get what he wants and to earn respect.
It also establishes Carol as a strong presence who is not embarrassed about who she is, won't fall for any cheap flirty tricks, and doesn't put up with anyone's BS. This makes Kirk admire her even more and foreshadows their eventual love for each other. Carol is not like the other women Kirk has been attracted to. She's not a cheap date or a one night stand. She's an intelligent, strong, talented individual whom he respects for those qualities, and not just for her looks for a change, though that appeals to him as well.
Kirk hasn't met a woman this formidable and intriguing to him since Uhura rejected him completely in the bar in the first film. Gaela (the Orion) he used to further his own ends in the Kobayashi Maru test and then uncaringly disposed of without a second thought, but Uhura he kept pursuing for three years until he came to understand that she loved Spock, and Spock was someone he came to admire as well.
Oddly enough, the underwear scene is sort of a shorter and more blunt version of Bond and Vesper's witty banter on the train in Casino Royale that established her to be his equal, and that didn't shy away from sexual implications either. It might seem counterintuitive to convey these kinds of ideas through a two-second underwear shot, but IMO it works in film and TV tradition of "show, don't tell."
____________________________
Apart from obviously being there for titillation too, the Carol Marcus underwear scene did serve a purpose. Throughout the preceding parts of the film, we see Kirk being confident to the point of arrogance and extremely flirty with women. He was having a meaningless one night stand with the cat babes, he gave F-Me glances to the women at Starfleet HQ and the bar, and he was making juvenile comments about Carol's appearance when she boarded the shuttle to join the crew on Enterprise. But now he tries the same schtick by glancing at Carol while she changes, and she'll have none of it. She's not intimidated or impressed by his glances, and gives him nothing in return except the sign to quit gawking and an order to turn around.
Kirk is flustered by this and doesn't quite know how to react, except to do what she tells him. This plays into his continuing decline in confidence throughout the film as he is rejected or slapped down by his superiors and peers. He's not able to get by on winging it or impressing people with his overconfidence any more. He has to work to get what he wants and to earn respect.
It also establishes Carol as a strong presence who is not embarrassed about who she is, won't fall for any cheap flirty tricks, and doesn't put up with anyone's BS. This makes Kirk admire her even more and foreshadows their eventual love for each other. Carol is not like the other women Kirk has been attracted to. She's not a cheap date or a one night stand. She's an intelligent, strong, talented individual whom he respects for those qualities, and not just for her looks for a change, though that appeals to him as well.
Kirk hasn't met a woman this formidable and intriguing to him since Uhura rejected him completely in the bar in the first film. Gaela (the Orion) he used to further his own ends in the Kobayashi Maru test and then uncaringly disposed of without a second thought, but Uhura he kept pursuing for three years until he came to understand that she loved Spock, and Spock was someone he came to admire as well.
Oddly enough, the underwear scene is sort of a shorter and more blunt version of Bond and Vesper's witty banter on the train in Casino Royale that established her to be his equal, and that didn't shy away from sexual implications either. It might seem counterintuitive to convey these kinds of ideas through a two-second underwear shot, but IMO it works in film and TV tradition of "show, don't tell."
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^ Nice.
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This is precisely the feeling I got as well. I couldn't have put it any better.
So it's not about her looks, but it's about her looks.
Re: Lindelof On Eve Scene
I concur with your statement. Absolutely nothing has been said about Kirk rolling out of the sack with the 2 females in an earlier scene nor said a word about him bedding the green Orion in the first film. I think that there is a double standard here. That being said after all of these years I have never noticed camel toe on the girl from "What Are Little Girls Made Of"....guess that one got by the sensors back then with the black and blue costume and I wonder if in today's society that title would even be allowed.
I concur with your statement. Absolutely nothing has been said about Kirk rolling out of the sack with the 2 females in an earlier scene nor said a word about him bedding the green Orion in the first film. I think that there is a double standard here. That being said after all of these years I have never noticed camel toe on the girl from "What Are Little Girls Made Of"....guess that one got by the sensors back then with the black and blue costume and I wonder if in today's society that title would even be allowed.
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