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Limited series as a solution to annoying cliffhangers and other things

hyzmarca

Fleet Captain
Fleet Captain
The current television model is one of attempting to milk every idea for all it is worth. As a result, a great many great shows get canceled without any sort of resolution. A few, such as Babylon 5, are intentionally limit to a set number of seasons. This avoids one of the the perils of a long-running series, namely turning to crap, but 5 years is still a fairly long time to bank on for a story arc, as proven by Crusade, which didn't even survive one season.

Then I watch Cowboy Bebop, a great series of 26 half-hour episodes with a tight well-plotted and very satisfying story arc, good realistic character development, and enough one-shots to keep casual viewers happy, and I think "why not this?"

Instead of attempting to create long sprawling multi-year sci-fi and fantasy epics with no reasonable end in sight, why not go for single-season epics, limited series plotted to last 12-26 episodes, no more?

Certainly, it would be more satisfying to fans. There are even advantages from a marketing standpoint. Hype it up before it begins, start fast and strong and end fast and strong and you'll still likely have a pretty decent sized audience that is enchanted with the series creators, and those popular names can be used to hype up the next series.

When you let a series drag on and peter out, the guys in charge become much less bankable. There's not much chance of Berman and Braga making a popular Trek series anytime soon, for example. But if Voyager had been shorter and Enterprise's early seasons had sucked less, that might, indeed, by different.

Of course, there are also disadvantages. Plenty of shows are disasters early on, and don't get into their groove until later seasons. A short limited series can't find it's groove later, it has to be awesome from the begining. But, this isn't much different from the current state of affairs, in which new series need to be immediate ratings hits.
 
Re: Limited series as a solution to annoying cliffhangers and other th

Agreed. That or either do shorter seasons of 13 episodes each or even less, following the british model. instead of a 22 episode season littered with mediocre episodes, why not turn the focus on 13 great episodes.
 
Re: Limited series as a solution to annoying cliffhangers and other th

HBO does this, with shows like Rome and The Sopranos.

Studios want to find the goose (TV show) that lays a tonne of golden eggs (seasons), after all, if it works its much more profitable than a single egg. Not the smartest thinking in my opinion, but it i what it is.
 
Re: Limited series as a solution to annoying cliffhangers and other th

Maybe the networks have trepidations because it could mean each season starting from scratch. If all shows were limited one season shows, CBS wouldn't know they have CSI and etc. to bank on next season, they'd just have to hope that their new batch of shows catches on with viewers. They would also not have a chance to offset producton costs with future seasons and then there's syndication to contend with.

However, I'm by no means an expert on TV production so those are just my guesses.
 
Re: Limited series as a solution to annoying cliffhangers and other th

Most shows lose money for a time, even successful ones. It's when they hit syndication they really start turning a profit. And you need episodes to do that.
 
Re: Limited series as a solution to annoying cliffhangers and other th

Agreed. That or either do shorter seasons of 13 episodes each or even less, following the british model. instead of a 22 episode season littered with mediocre episodes, why not turn the focus on 13 great episodes.

I've never understood this way of thinking.

If a show is bad, 22 crap episodes or 13 crap episodes won't make the difference.

And who is to say the mediocre episodes wouldn't be part of the 13 episodes written?

It's a gamble either way.
 
Re: Limited series as a solution to annoying cliffhangers and other th

Agreed. That or either do shorter seasons of 13 episodes each or even less, following the british model. instead of a 22 episode season littered with mediocre episodes, why not turn the focus on 13 great episodes.

I've never understood this way of thinking.

If a show is bad, 22 crap episodes or 13 crap episodes won't make the difference.

And who is to say the mediocre episodes wouldn't be part of the 13 episodes written?

It's a gamble either way.

I think the idea is that there is less filler or bottle episodes that have to be generated. The tighter seasons, especially the six to eight episodes of some UK series, means that all of the episodes can be written by the core writing team leading to a more consistent tone and quality.

I really enjoyed The Shield on FX because each 13-episode season was a really tight arc and they showed all the episodes back-to-back without repeats or interruption.
 
Re: Limited series as a solution to annoying cliffhangers and other th

I've been saying for some time that arced series should have a built-in end date. I don't know that one season is the solution though because that severely limits the story-telling options. Perhaps just a new model of buying shows that says "OK, we'll buy this and guarantee x number of episodes", that way the producers know how long they have to tell the story and can pace the narrative appropriately.

With the advent of DVD sales and online streaming, there are enough available revenue streams for most studios to successfully make back the money on most shows even if they aren't ratings winners. As part of that, it should be the studios that make that agreement with the creators, not the networks, and completion of the contract should not be based on the network's decisions. If the network cancels the show before the contract is up, the studio can then shop it around or release it in some low-cost, high-return way like DVD, that allows for recouping of costs.
 
Re: Limited series as a solution to annoying cliffhangers and other th

I'll give my standard answer to this topic: a show's premise often tells you how long the show should run. A show that is too short is worse than one that runs too long - at least when it's too long, you can bail on it and return to check out the ending.

BSG - Four seasons was good; any more would have been pushing it. I was very glad to see it end when it did, because it was getting that "they're stretching things" feel towards the end.

Lost - I'll be very sad when it's gone, but I can tell now that more than six seasons would really be pushing it.

Heroes - Like Star Trek, it has an open-ended premise that could theoretically run forever, if not as the original series, then as spin-offs. In its case, the only limiting factor is whether the writers can come up with stories worth telling.

Chuck - It needs another season but if that's the last one, fine by me. The premise is very restrictive and can't go on forever.

I wouldn't mind seeing some limited run series (less than a year) in the mix - we used to call those "mini-series" and they've vanished off the face of the earth. But that doesn't mean other stories don't require one, two, five or ten seasons to tell.

The issue of shows being cancelled before their time is separate from the issue of how long they should run. If a mini-series doesn't perform, there's nothing stopping the network from yanking it before its end. Nobody starts a show with the intention of seeing it cancelled, and making a show shorter won't stop it from being cancelled, so I don't see the logical connection between a premise's implied length and the odds the series will be cancelled.

When you let a series drag on and peter out, the guys in charge become much less bankable. There's not much chance of Berman and Braga making a popular Trek series anytime soon, for example. But if Voyager had been shorter and Enterprise's early seasons had sucked less, that might, indeed, by different.
If you're running into the problem of creative burn-out, then change the personnel. VOY's premise could have been sustained seven seasons and been as good as DS9 throughout. ENT could also have been a strong seven-season show.

Of the two, ENT is the one that should have been seven seasons (a couple setting up the Earth-Romulan War; three of the war itself; two more telling how the Federation was founded in its aftermath). VOY easily could have been less, maybe more like four. But that's all dependent on the producers and writers having a story that's worth two minutes of telling, much less seven years.
Hype it up before it begins, start fast and strong and end fast and strong and you'll still likely have a pretty decent sized audience that is enchanted with the series creators, and those popular names can be used to hype up the next series.
If you're riding the wave of success, then why not use that success to hype up the next season rather than jump to a new series? It might just be a matter of semantics anyway. A show could be constructed so that each season is more of a departure from the last than we normally see. You can't do that with a narrow (goal-oriented) premise like Chuck, but a situational premise without a single goal like Heroes or Star Trek is perfect for that approach.

Then you run into the problem that many people watch shows for their favorite characters, which means that even if you change the premise, you will probably not be able to get away with a total change in the cast. And if you do kill off major characters, the savvier folks in the audience will be able to predict those deaths by intuiting who the fan-favorites are, or just paying attention on the message boards, and knowing that X, Y and Z are safe. That kinda kills some of the suspense but I doubt it can be helped.

Plenty of shows are disasters early on, and don't get into their groove until later seasons.
If they are disasters early on, they never get a chance to find their groove.
Studios want to find the goose (TV show) that lays a tonne of golden eggs (seasons), after all, if it works its much more profitable than a single egg. Not the smartest thinking in my opinion, but it i what it is.
TV runs on the hit-based model: one hit pays for a whole raft of failures. That's the only thing that can finance the high failure rate of shows (2/3rds fail the first year, and that stat may be higher now). But what other business model could pay the way? If you needed more shows to be hits, you'd take fewer risks. TV takes few enough risks as it is.
Maybe the networks have trepidations because it could mean each season starting from scratch.
That's exactly why they won't do it. And if Miniseries X actually is a huge hit, it will become an ongoing series because that's the hit that the network needs to finance the ongoing parade of failures. The Lost example is a rarity, and even then, six years is a healthy run - and given the way the ratings are going, probably wouldn't have lasted much longer anyway.

I've never understood this way of thinking.

If a show is bad, 22 crap episodes or 13 crap episodes won't make the difference.
I agree. People see the 13-episode runs of cable shows and think somehow that can be translated to network TV runs, but they don't realize that HBO or AMC gets revenues from cable subscriptions, which means they can be less mass market and riskier in their approach, get an audience that would spell doom on a network, and still get by just fine. Each viewer of HBO or AMC is worth more than network viewers, so the viewers get better product. That's where the quality difference comes from - the viewers are worth the quality, and they demand the quality.

HBO or AMC could do 22 episode runs of shows and they still would be good because the approach is bolder and more creative and the talent behind the shows is good. Some dumb police procedural on CBS isn't going to magically become worth watching just because they do fewer episodes per year.

With the advent of DVD sales and online streaming, there are enough available revenue streams for most studios to successfully make back the money on most shows even if they aren't ratings winners.
Those have some impact, but less than people commonly assume. Just because you might watch shows that way doesn't mean they are significant yet. The business model will be heavily based on eyeballs watching ads and counted via Nielsons for some time yet.

The part of the financial picture that gets underreported is the ability of cable to get financing from subscriptions and forge a different business model from broadcast. That's where I see the big difference in quality, the ability to hold an audience via arced storytelling and niche interests. There's a reason Skiffy could afford to show BSG and greenlight Caprica on a mere 2M viewers or so over the show's run. Even on the CW, that number might have merited cancellation and on any other network, it would have been doomed.

If the network cancels the show before the contract is up, the studio can then shop it around or release it in some low-cost, high-return way like DVD, that allows for recouping of costs.
Direct to DVD, for anything other than cheap crap monster movies and that ilk, is very iffy. Remember, not being on network or cable means you lose a huge chunk of your advertising. Now how do people find out your show exists? A lot of the "cost saving" of not having to find a place on TV is going to be gobbled up by vastly increased marketing costs.
 
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Re: Limited series as a solution to annoying cliffhangers and other th

That's the problem with American TV - they keep making it until it stops making money.

Look at Stargate, where it was supposed to end 4 times starting with season 5. They just kept extending it and extending it until it just sort of petered off into DVD movies.
 
Re: Limited series as a solution to annoying cliffhangers and other th

Ah but if you like a show, you want them to keep making it until it stops making money. And Stargate isn't crap because it's gone on too long. It's crap because they need to FIRE ALL THE WRITERS!!! :rommie: The situation is even more obvious than the Berman-and-Braga travesty. When the writers and producers on your show have been out of ideas since the last Ice Age, maybe it's time to get fresh blood?

Let's say they hire a new crew to write and produce the new show for 4-5 years. Then they start to get burned out. Fire them, and bring in new folks again. Repeat the process indefinitely. Actors get fired and replaced when the franchise jumps from SG-1 to SG:A to SG:U. Why shouldn't the same happen to the people behind the camera, too?

It's like some MGM honcho just assumes writers are interchangeable and bringing in new ones wouldn't have the reinvigorating effect of new faces in front of the camera. Do they think we're such dolts that we don't notice the writing? That we just watch because we like to see this or that actor run around and fire weaponry and set off C-4? Maybe I shouldn't ask questions like that. :rommie:
 
Re: Limited series as a solution to annoying cliffhangers and other th

With the advent of DVD sales and online streaming, there are enough available revenue streams for most studios to successfully make back the money on most shows even if they aren't ratings winners.
Those have some impact, but less than people commonly assume. Just because you might watch shows that way doesn't mean they are significant yet. The business model will be heavily based on eyeballs watching ads and counted via Nielsons for some time yet.

Key word here being "yet". The tools exist, they just haven't figured out how to use them, yet. In order to get away from the current paradigm, someone must take the first step. DSL is available to 95% of the country and actual subscription is growing exponentially; "yet" is coming sooner than people think.

The part of the financial picture that gets underreported is the ability of cable to get financing from subscriptions and forge a different business model from broadcast. That's where I see the big difference in quality, the ability to hold an audience via arced storytelling and niche interests. There's a reason Skiffy could afford to show BSG and greenlight Caprica on a mere 2M viewers or so over the show's run. Even on the CW, that number might have merited cancellation and on any other network, it would have been doomed.
Yes, and there are ways that studios could use those models as a starting point to move into a new way of distributing and making money from shows. Networks are the ones that rely on advertising; studios can make money from direct distribution, show subscriptions etc., and the first one that figures that out and how to do it will win. That's why I emphasized that show life should be determined by studios, not by advertising-based network decisions.

Ah but if you like a show, you want them to keep making it until it stops making money.

No, if I like a show, I want it to go on until it stops making sense. Why the fuck would I want to watch the same show with the same premise for 7 or 10 or 15 years? Tell the story, find and ending and move on. :vulcan:
 
Re: Limited series as a solution to annoying cliffhangers and other th

Most shows lose money for a time, even successful ones. It's when they hit syndication they really start turning a profit. And you need episodes to do that.

Profesor Zoom has got it here: most American series cost more to make per-episode than the networks are paying, and the production company is betting that they'll last enough to be able to pay off the steadily building debt by selling it into syndication (at which point, it's more cost effective to kill the series than to keep making it). I think the tecnhical term is 'deficit financing'?
The traditional cut-off was about 150 episodes... maybe 80 to 100 for something cult. But basically, six to seven seasons.
But DVD has changed it slightly so that a 13 episode run can still pay back so long as people buy it... And that 150 episode target depended on 30 weeks of five-days-a-week stripped repeats, which doesn't hold up if you can downplad the episode you want from i-tunes, or buy season box sets.
So there may be a move to shorter runs coming.. wasn't NBC goign to try out a British style schedule of three different seasons last/this year, with Kings and Merlin in the mix?
 
Re: Limited series as a solution to annoying cliffhangers and other th

I've been wondering about this sort of thing for a while now. It seems to me like a lot of ideas would benefit from tight if shorter-duration storytelling rather than open-ended shows that get bogged down in filler episodes (TSCC comes to mind). Reading about things like Y: The Last Man or Preacher being turned into films, I can't help but think they would be so much better off as TV series of one or two seasons. Oh, and I want HBO to do a zombie TV show along the same lines.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
 
Re: Limited series as a solution to annoying cliffhangers and other th

No, if I like a show, I want it to go on until it stops making sense. Why the fuck would I want to watch the same show with the same premise for 7 or 10 or 15 years? Tell the story, find and ending and move on. :vulcan:
You can stop watching a show anytime you want. What you really want is to see the ending not soon after you lose interest, but that's not really up to you. If other people are interested in seeing more - and ratings imply that that is the case - then you will have to wait.

And even if a show is set to end at a certain time, that's no guarantee that that ending will coincide with your loss of interest in the premise. It might be too early or too late for your tastes - how are TV writers and producers supposed to know exactly what you want? They don't know and they don't care because a single viewer isn't worth anything to them. They're playing the numbers - if the ratings are still there, people are interested. That's all they can do. The notion TV can be calibrated to individual tastes is completely unrealistic.

And I can easily envision shows with premises that can endure for 7, 10 or even 15 years. DS9's 7-year run was a good length for instance. They could have done better episodes in S1, but that obviously wasn't the fault of the series' length, since the worst season was the first.
But DVD has changed it slightly so that a 13 episode run can still pay back so long as people buy it...
Since 13 episode runs usually exist only on cable, does this also imply that subscription fees need to factor into the equation to make it all work out?
wasn't NBC goign to try out a British style schedule of three different seasons last/this year, with Kings and Merlin in the mix?
That might have been the plan, but now they're just trying to survive. (They must have lost faith in Merlin, either because they didn't like what they saw or because Crusoe flopped, or both, because they're burning it off this summer. Kings has also been a disaster.) And long hiatuses seem to be really hard on shows - always has been, but seems to be getting worse. Shows that come back after six months away just crash because everyone has forgotten about them. Which gets back to the real problem behind all this - too much content (network audiences migrating to cable) chasing too few eyeballs.

Here are a couple more counter-examples to the notion that ending a show at a set time does anything for the quality:

Harper's Island
- Planned as a limited series. I've watched the first two episodes and that's it for me. 13 episodes are 13 too long of that crap. I'd rather see 13 episodes of a good show that gets cancelled without resolution than 13 episodes of boring drivel with a planned ending.

Kings - Planned as a limited series or, if successful, ongoing. They forgot to give us a reason to care about these dull characters. There are a few good ones, but not nearly enough to hold my interest.
 
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I think studios can plan for having long term shows, but try and make the story arc contained to a season, then begin a new arc the following season (like Buffy).

That way if a show does get canned it does have a completed story (like Daybreak) otherwise we get left hanging (like Crusade).
 
Re: Limited series as a solution to annoying cliffhangers and other th

Some shows are smart and do this. Wonderfalls had 13 episode story arc in cas ethey were canceled. Southland seems to have the same in case there is no season 2.
 
Re: Limited series as a solution to annoying cliffhangers and other th

Kings was planned with the story being concluded at the end of the 1st season, but leaving enough open for the rest of David's story afterward if the series picked up. Fortunately this pre-planning of the first season means we won't be left on some major cliffhanger as the show isn't getting a second season. Good for me because I enjoy the show greatly and will at least get some closure at the end.
 
Re: Limited series as a solution to annoying cliffhangers and other th

I think studios can plan for having long term shows, but try and make the story arc contained to a season, then begin a new arc the following season (like Buffy).

I too was thinking that more shows should follow the Buffy model of being an open-ended multi-season show that nevertheless has some degree of closure at the end of each season. You can pretty much end Buffy at any of its season finales and not really be left hanging. (At worst, Season 2 is kinda a downer ending because it ends with Buffy killing Angel and running away from home. Season 6 was completely resolved at the end except for the one story thread of Spike getting his soul back.)
 
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