LIghtoller's Granddaughter: "No one should have died on Titanic"

[sidious618]

My father has always had an odd obsession with the Titanic and as such I know a lot about it, too. I can tell you that had the ship stopped moving it still would've sunk before any other ship reached it. That said, none of these ideas are new, they've been thrown around for ages.

 

[scotpens]

Regardless of who's to blame for the Titanic sideswiping the iceberg, no lives need have been lost if the ship had carried enough lifeboats for all persons on board. The water was so calm it was smooth as glass, and it took 2 hours 40 minutes for Titanic to sink -- plenty of time to fill and launch all boats. The ship met the legal requirements for lifeboat capacity, but the law hadn't kept pace with the rapid increase in the size and passenger capacity of ships. Since Titanic was deemed "unsinkable," the White Star line put lifeboats low on the priority list.

As an aside, the bow of the Swedish liner Stockholm was completely crushed when it rammed the Andrea Doria in 1956. The Stockholm remained afloat and steamed away from the collision under its own power, had its bow repaired and was put back in service. In fact, the hull of the Stockholm, with a completely new superstructure and interior, still plies the Caribbean today as the MS Caribe.

 

[Trekker4747]

The thing is, no ship was coming to their rescue! No one knew they had sunk and the only people they were able to reach with the marconi machine (the ships that could make it had turned theirs off due to Titanic's inane messages) were too far away to make any difference at all. Even if they had stopped moving right away they still would've sunk long before the rescue ship (Carpathia?) would've arrived.

All closer ships were at a stand-still due to ice, Marconi machines off, not aware of Titanic's situation.

And, yeah it only makes sense that the ship should've had as much capacity for the lifeboats as the ship's capacity. That's just common sense, but at the time they were more worried about aesthetics than any practicality, to make matters worse they didn't even fill up the lifeboats they had to begin with. A lot more people could've been saved if they had simply just filled up the boats they DID have.

I also remember seeing a program dealing a bit with "Hindsight" and proposed the idea that if everyone on the ship had worked together to tether a rafter together using deck chairs and tables from the ship a large raft could've been made to accomidate the passengers who'd otherwise not have a place on a lifeboat.

 

[ShamelessMcBundy]

As more reasons are uncovered over time it is just a sad reminder that what really sank that ship was hubris.

This calls for The Onion!

 

[Canadave]

As an aside, the bow of the Swedish liner Stockholm was completely crushed when it rammed the Andrea Doria in 1956. The Stockholm remained afloat and steamed away from the collision under its own power, had its bow repaired and was put back in service. In fact, the hull of the Stockholm, with a completely new superstructure and interior, still plies the Caribbean today as the MS Caribe.

Interesting, I didn't know that. Though apparently, she's been renamed once more to theMS Athena.

 

[Rett Mikhal]

Whether the ship turned the right way or not, the best course of action was probably to go into reverse straight on. If the ship stopped in time, fine, if not, losing one compartment is better than the entire ship.

But, as said, many things contributed to it, like sailing in the Atlantic AT NIGHT at FULL SPEED just to make headlines.

 

[Trekker4747]

And one pair of binoculars for the lookouts, that pair being left behind.

 

[STR]

Regardless of who's to blame for the Titanic sideswiping the iceberg, no lives need have been lost if the ship had carried enough lifeboats for all persons on board. The water was so calm it was smooth as glass, and it took 2 hours 40 minutes for Titanic to sink -- plenty of time to fill and launch all boats. The ship met the legal requirements for lifeboat capacity, but the law hadn't kept pace with the rapid increase in the size and passenger capacity of ships. Since Titanic was deemed "unsinkable," the White Star line put lifeboats low on the priority list.

Funny thing is that White Star expected the regulations on lifeboats to change, and actually built Titanic and her sisters to hold double the number of lifeboats she left port with. They didn't fill to capacity because A) cheapness, but mainly B) the extra boats took up space on the promenade deck and, in general, uglied up the ship

 

[ISS_Megiddo]

yes yes...the stupid "steering was reversed back then" crap.

Walter Lord already shot that theory down. It was common practice in 1912 and Hitchins had served on this kind of ship pretty much his whole career.

If Titanic had stood still, she would have survived at least until the rescue ship came and no one need have died

Umm. No.

5 forward compartments were open to the sea immediately following the impact with flooding in the 6th. The filling and collapse of the bulkheads is consistent with the 2:40 timeline.

This ships designer, Thomas Andrews was onboard at the time reported to the officers that it had 2 hours.

...sorry Louise...try again...

The nature of the damage was such that she could have remained afloat much longer without the added water pressure from forward movement speeding up the flooding.

That was the point. Yes, the ship would have sunk BUT she would have stayed afloat long enough for Carpathia to reach her first.

Here's my 2 cents?

H&W (I can't properly spell Wolf so here goes) did build
the Titanic, perhaps using 'outdated' navigational codes,
and put a 'new' guy at the helm. Much like the movie
'Christine', and old car with a new kid at the wheel.

Yet if the evidence, of the telegraph recovered from
stern bridge on the stern (assuming all the telegraphs
were connected during the voyage) would indicate a
'slow ahead' on the indicator would back up the truth to
the ship 'crawling' to its doom.

Dr. Ballard did indicate on his dives to the ship the way
the iceberg 'morse coded' the hull. Bear in mind from a
CSI perspective, the 'slag' rivets and hull plates during a
"RUSH" construction, and the labor force interrupted her
construction for Olympic's repairs with the HMS Hawke,
indicate the management is solely to blame from the
start.

Case in point, all "MAJOR" disasters are avoidable, if
the safety officers, and those in charge work together to
ensure a successful deployment. Yet management do
not think that way. Management wants results, and it
means time x money = success.

Steering / Navigational errors, design flaws, and a new
untested helmsman point to disaster. The only weather
issue was according to most reports, the weather was
cold, clear, and calm. "Like a mill pond" from Capt Smith
'assuming he ever said that in real life' however, the
fact remains, Lightoller 'tried' to avoid the iceberg, and
tried to 'miss' which in fact 'punctured' the hull, broke
the cheap rivets and poked holes in adjacent 'water
tight' compartments to doom the ship.

Take a plastic ice cube tray, poke one hole per ice cube
area on the side and bottom on the right side, for five
compartments in a tub of water or a big sink. watch the
water fill and spill. "FILL AND SPILL" into each area.

I believe management was directly at fault, for Ismay
wanted to get more passengers with size and speed,
but failed to listen to reason and logic, pushed his new
ship, and escaped to save his own skin.

Had Capt Smith stood up to Ismay, or may have done
some 'delay' lighting the boilers, or some excuse to slow
down, and heed the ice warnings, things would be really
different.

2nd Officer Lightoller thought he did the right thing, his
granddaughter though he was looking out for his friends,
and coworkers but really that blame was on the younger
Ismay. Had they heed the warnings took proper action,
and got past the ice flow, I would light all the boilers and
'step on it' to New York, out of danger and race quickly!

The "REAL" bad guy's on this is Capt Stanley Lord of the
Californian. I said this to James Cameron, and history
does record, the Californian 'witnessed' all of the rocket
signals, never woke up the radio man, and Capt Lord
just fell asleep. He warned Titanic of the ice, but Jack
Phillips final message... "SHUT UP, SHUT UP, BUSY
Working Cape Race!" Pissed off the radio man on the
Californian and that was it. So if you want to blame
"SOMEBODY" blame J. Bruce Ismay of the White Star
(Now Cunard) and Capt Stanley Lord.

Ok, that was more than 2 cents. If I am wrong let me
know, and I will correct myself. Thank you!

"Transporter Room, One to Beam up, Energize!"


or

"Uh, Keptain what does 'Resistance is Futile' mean?"


Shalom,
ISS_Megiddo
(Israeli Starfleet Services of the Israeli Federation of
Planets)

 

[Trekker4747]

The Ice Berg, has a report the following be said on its bridge:

Junior Officer: Sir, the Titanic has increased to 24 knots!
Commanding Officer: Fine. Let them CHARGE INTO THEIR DESTRUCTION!!!

 

[Leviathan]

The nature of the damage was such that she could have remained afloat much longer without the added water pressure from forward movement speeding up the flooding.

That was the point. Yes, the ship would have sunk BUT she would have stayed afloat long enough for Carpathia to reach her first.

Yeah...I got the point about time - I am saying the pressure was not the major factor...actually I'm quoting Walter Lord...

If you work out the filling over of each compartment based purely on volume and the damage of the ship (computed at 12m^2) you get about 2 hours.

The problem is that as the compartments filled, the water sloshed over the bulkheads to fill the next one. Against this factor, any pressure on the water entry would be inconsequential. The ship would tilt up and sink increasingly fast as the compartments flooded.

The biggest time impact was actually the closing of the watertight doors. Had these been left open the ship would have settled on an even keel instead of going down by the head. In that case there would have been no sloshing over and the volume of the ship would have taken 6-8 hours to fill.

 

[ThankQ]

Seconds From Disaster!

 

[Scout101]

Seems a pretty large group of causes, as said, and not any one thing. The 'should have stopped, rather than keep moving' theory is probably the only nonsense one in the bunch. We've got:

-Dark, dangerous waters, going too fast. Slow down, ship is saved. Wanted to make headlines, plus thought ship was unsinkable, so no worries.

-Sideswiped iceberg rather than head-on collision. Biggest problem. Ship was designed to take a beating, but this was just past any planned spec. Ruptured too many compartments. Head on, you lose a couple in the front, and lots of people get hurt, but ship gets to New York just fine, but a little late.

-Too small rudder. Yeah, she was a big ol' bitch, and at the speed she was going, just not enough turning power.

-Too big a ship for crew. All experience was on smaller boats, this one didn't handle the same, and they didn't have enough time.

-Wrong orders. Should have let it hit head on, or put it in full reverse, or gone full steam and hard over, any of those would have worked. The new-ness of the ship worked against them, and they went hard over AND reverse, which didn't give them enough control to do jack shit.

-No ships in range for support, dumb route, thought flares were fireworks, can't exactly call 911 in 1912, etc. Shit was dangerous back then.

-Not enough lifeboats, poor planning. Ship can't sink though, and it looks dumb, so can't have that. That said, the available ones weren't filled, but you expect that kinda thing in an emergency. Blind panic does strange things to mobs...

Changing ANY of those things probably saves the ship. that ALL of them happened meant they never really had a chance...

 

[Australis]

I saw a doco that strongly suggested the hull steel wa sall wrong, very brittle. Someone brogut up some fragments, did some testing.

Another factor in a whole forest of factors, much like Piper Alpha a few years ago.

 

[Trekker4747]

The steel used on Titanic was fairly "brittle" in cold waters as it was full of impurities but, IIRC, the steel was some of the "best" they could manage at the time.

 

[Spot's Meow]

What I remember about the steel was that they didn't use the proper method for some of the rivets placed in the area the iceberg hit. They were supposed to go through some extra firing procedure or something, but to save time and money they just put them on as is. Just another among many factors.


I guess the one that appalls me most of all is the lack of lifeboats and proper emergency procedures. Whether it was an iceberg or an asteroid, how could so many people assume that nothing would go wrong and that the ship would not need to be evacuated in some, however remote, circumstance? I remember, on the two cruises I've been on, going through the emergency procedures first thing before the cruise started. And no it wasn't a truly in-depth training, and no it never became necessary knowledge, but what if? If something, anything, had happened, the crew and passengers would have had SOME reference point for what to do and where to go. It just upsets me to think of the guys of the White Star Line sitting around a table discussing how many lifeboats to put on board and not thinking what would seem obvious to any person, which is to have spots for every body. Of course they didn't believe it would sink, but WHAT IF. Did they never even consider that question? Maybe it's just my way of thinking because I am a very cautious person who tries to plan ahead for any contingencies, but the arrogance, the unwillingness to believe that lifeboats would ever be necessary, really pisses me off. I'm sure it came down to saving money in the end, and it's just so upsetting.

 

[Trekker4747]

It was part saving money and part making the ship look good for the rich people. But, yeah, not having enough lifeboats on board for everyone is just asking for shit to happen.

And then not even loading the boats to their maximum when they did use them. Ugh.

 

[Amaris]

I believe the first couple of boats were only half full, a difference of hundreds of lives being saved and lost.

 

[Trekker4747]

The life boats break down:

Life Boat#01: On Board: 12/Capacity: 40
Life Boat#02: 25/40
Life Boat#03: 40/65
Life Boat#04: 40/65
Life Boat#05: 41/65
Life Boat#06: 28/65
Life Boat#07: 28/65
Life Boat#08: 28/65
Life Boat#09: 56/65
Life Boat#10: 55/65
Life Boat#11: 70/65
Life Boat#12: 43/65
Life Boat#13: 64/65
Life Boat#14: 60/65
Life Boat#15: 70/65
Life Boat#16: 56/65
Collapsible A: (Launched improperly, took on water after sinking, 30 men on board, 12 would survive and would be rescued by another boat.)/47
Collapsible B: (Never launched, capsized during sinking, 20 or 30 men would seek refuge on it and be rescued by a returning boat.)/47
Collapsible C: 39/47
Collapsible D: 44/47

Capacity of all the boats combined: 1,178.
Number of people who survived the sinking: 706
Number of people on the ship: 2,223
Capacity of the ship: 3,600.

 

[Captain Ice]

I remember, on the two cruises I've been on, going through the emergency procedures first thing before the cruise started. And no it wasn't a truly in-depth training, and no it never became necessary knowledge, but what if? If something, anything, had happened, the crew and passengers would have had SOME reference point for what to do and where to go.

I think you can thank the aftereffects of Titannic for that. I think that requirement came about as a direct result of Titannic's sinking.

In their defense (though I still think they should be shot for not using common sense) I do not think White Star was the only line that only provided enough lifeboats to qualify under the letter of the law. I believe this was pretty common practice.