Lightning Storm? What Lightning Storm? [SPOILER ALERT!]

[Cary L. Brown]

But, but, but, they followed current scientific thinking for their time travel mechanics.

Yeah... and you know, the really sad part of that is that they don't seem to recognize the difference between "TNG-era scriptwriter" thinking and "real science" thinking.

The fact that a couple of people who are nominally "scientists" have proposed their own fantasies about how it might work doesn't make it "scientific thinking" any more than the ideas of those people about who ought to win American Idol somehow represent "scientific thinking."

The truth is, we have ZERO evidence, ZERO experimental data, ZERO observation, and ZERO working theory regarding "time travel mechanics." So every last bit of this is pure fantasy, not "science" in any way whatsoever.

It's perfectly fine for people who practice science to also practice "fantasy fiction." But not to blur the lines between the two.

Time travel MAY be possible. Or it may not be. But we'll need something more than the fantasies of a few folks (and yes, people with PhD's can also engage in fantasy... believe it or not!) to help us determine that.

 

[BillJ]

FYI, if I were writing that sequence, I'd have had the line be something more along the line of "Captain, I'm picking up a massive cascade of radiation in the ultra-high-frequency range coming from coordinates just outside of the Epsilon Eridani system... Vulcan, sir!"

Much better. Practically rolls right off he tongue!

 

[Cary L. Brown]

FYI, if I were writing that sequence, I'd have had the line be something more along the line of "Captain, I'm picking up a massive cascade of radiation in the ultra-high-frequency range coming from coordinates just outside of the Epsilon Eridani system... Vulcan, sir!"

Much better. Practically rolls right off he tongue!

Well, the first part is just there to make them sound like they know more than a kindergarten kid would. The important information is in the last three syllables.

This is how it would be done in real life, too, of course. A radar operator, for instance, won't say "Sir, I'm seeing this really wacky blinky-light thing on my lookie-attie-thingie." He'll say something like "Sir, I've got an intermittant low-altitude contact at grid coordinate 40-23-53-14... that's the Bridge over the River Kwai, Sir!"

 

[Ronald Held]

Normla black holes do not allow passage through them Traversible wormholes can displace ships going into a mouth in space and time.

 

[USS Intrepid]

But, but, but, they followed current scientific thinking for their time travel mechanics.

Yeah... and you know, the really sad part of that is that they don't seem to recognize the difference between "TNG-era scriptwriter" thinking and "real science" thinking.

The fact that a couple of people who are nominally "scientists" have proposed their own fantasies about how it might work doesn't make it "scientific thinking" any more than the ideas of those people about who ought to win American Idol somehow represent "scientific thinking."

The truth is, we have ZERO evidence, ZERO experimental data, ZERO observation, and ZERO working theory regarding "time travel mechanics." So every last bit of this is pure fantasy, not "science" in any way whatsoever.

It's perfectly fine for people who practice science to also practice "fantasy fiction." But not to blur the lines between the two.

Time travel MAY be possible. Or it may not be. But we'll need something more than the fantasies of a few folks (and yes, people with PhD's can also engage in fantasy... believe it or not!) to help us determine that.

Absolutely.

In fairness, I have no problem with dramatic license, but it amuses me no end to have them claiming to be adhering to current science on one hand, but then completely ignoring it on the other.

Let's face it, they quite possibly don't care less about current science, they're just using it as a convenient excuse to support their take on the story.

Nothing wrong with that, but it is fairly amusing.

 

[BillJ]

But, but, but, they followed current scientific thinking for their time travel mechanics.

Yeah... and you know, the really sad part of that is that they don't seem to recognize the difference between "TNG-era scriptwriter" thinking and "real science" thinking.

The fact that a couple of people who are nominally "scientists" have proposed their own fantasies about how it might work doesn't make it "scientific thinking" any more than the ideas of those people about who ought to win American Idol somehow represent "scientific thinking."

The truth is, we have ZERO evidence, ZERO experimental data, ZERO observation, and ZERO working theory regarding "time travel mechanics." So every last bit of this is pure fantasy, not "science" in any way whatsoever.

It's perfectly fine for people who practice science to also practice "fantasy fiction." But not to blur the lines between the two.

Time travel MAY be possible. Or it may not be. But we'll need something more than the fantasies of a few folks (and yes, people with PhD's can also engage in fantasy... believe it or not!) to help us determine that.

Absolutely.

In fairness, I have no problem with dramatic license, but it amuses me no end to have them claiming to be adhering to current science on one hand, but then completely ignoring it on the other.

Let's face it, they quite possibly don't care less about current science, they're just using it as a convenient excuse to support their take on the story.

Nothing wrong with that, but it is fairly amusing.

But one is real world, the other is a two-hour movie. I just don't think twice about them using dramatic license for it.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

FYI, if I were writing that sequence, I'd have had the line be something more along the line of "Captain, I'm picking up a massive cascade of radiation in the ultra-high-frequency range coming from coordinates just outside of the Epsilon Eridani system... Vulcan, sir!"

Much better. Practically rolls right off he tongue!

Well, the first part is just there to make them sound like they know more than a kindergarten kid would.

And the only reason anyone would report something like that is with the intent to prove to someone that he DOES know more than a kindergarten kid. The problem is, he wouldn't be on the ship if he was that stupid, and the Captain knows this, so he shouldn't have a reason to prove this in the first place.

Think of the jargon in modern naval vessels or in aviation: lots of code words or simple phrases to communicate lots of information in as short a space as possible. So when the sonar operator on the USS Virginia radios Conn he says "Possible submarine detected, bearing zero two four, same depth." He doesn't say "Captain, sonar's detected an unusual vibration in the 67 hertz frequency range. Based on harmonic patterns and duration, I suspect it's a vessel, possibly a submarine." Both in and out of universe, excessive use of technobabble is a blatant attempt to show off how smart a particular character thinks he is.

The important information is in the last three syllables.

Which makes the preceding dozen syllables superfluous.

A radar operator, for instance, won't say "Sir, I'm seeing this really wacky blinky-light thing on my lookie-attie-thingie." He'll say something like "Sir, I've got an intermittant low-altitude contact at grid coordinate 40-23-53-14... that's the Bridge over the River Kwai, Sir!"

Sure... but the radar operator isn't going to say something like "Sir, I'm picking up a low-amplitude reflection in the S-band radar frequency coming from the coordinates over the river Kwai." Unless he's giving his report to a reporter from the Discovery Channel, I mean... otherwise, he'll say something like "Radar contact" and then recite bearing and altitude.

Mainly this is because a radar screen isn't designed to give that kind of superfluous information about frequency ranges or energy emissions, so I doubt that anyone on a starship other than the science officer would have anything on their console that would give that kind of readout (and even the science officer for analytical purposes, not for reporting purposes). Like the way it was typically done on TOS: the red light would start blinking on the helm station and Sulu would glance at his board and say "Something just triggered our deflectors, and I'm getting a radiation warning from one sensor." If the Captain wants more information than that, THEN he'll consult a science officer whose job it is to know these things.

 

[trevanian]

If the Captain wants more information than that, THEN he'll consult a science officer whose job it is to know these things.

You're ignoring the good observations Gerrold made about how bumpy the reports to the capt were. Kirk shouldn't have to ask for all that stuff, the info should be flowing to him unbidden till he asks for it to stop.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

If the Captain wants more information than that, THEN he'll consult a science officer whose job it is to know these things.

You're ignoring the good observations Gerrold made about how bumpy the reports to the capt were. Kirk shouldn't have to ask for all that stuff, the info should be flowing to him unbidden till he asks for it to stop.

On the contrary: Kirk should get exactly the information necessary to make a basic command decision, no more and no less. He knows who to ask if he needs more information (and it isn't always the science officer) and these separate departments know not to volunteer more information than the Captain has asked for.

So when V'ger starts shooting Glowpedos, the first thing he is told is "incomming fire!" which is enough for him to determine that the ship is under attack and he needs to take appropriate steps. If there's time, THEN he can ask Spock to analyze the weapon to see whether evasion or defense will be effective and what he can do to make those defenses more effective. In fact in some occasions he actually just flat out and asks "Your recommendation, Mister Spock?" when he doesn't know what to make of that analysis himself.

The overall point is that the Captain SHOULD have to ask for it if he really needs to know. He doesn't need to know everything, because he isn't an expert on everything and isn't supposed to be.

 

[trevanian]

If the Captain wants more information than that, THEN he'll consult a science officer whose job it is to know these things.

You're ignoring the good observations Gerrold made about how bumpy the reports to the capt were. Kirk shouldn't have to ask for all that stuff, the info should be flowing to him unbidden till he asks for it to stop.

On the contrary: Kirk should get exactly the information necessary to make a basic command decision, no more and no less. He knows who to ask if he needs more information (and it isn't always the science officer) and these separate departments know not to volunteer more information than the Captain has asked for.

So when V'ger starts shooting Glowpedos, the first thing he is told is "incomming fire!" which is enough for him to determine that the ship is under attack and he needs to take appropriate steps. If there's time, THEN he can ask Spock to analyze the weapon to see whether evasion or defense will be effective and what he can do to make those defenses more effective. In fact in some occasions he actually just flat out and asks "Your recommendation, Mister Spock?" when he doesn't know what to make of that analysis himself.

The overall point is that the Captain SHOULD have to ask for it if he really needs to know. He doesn't need to know everything, because he isn't an expert on everything and isn't supposed to be.

Boy, I sure as shit don't want to serve on your ship. If I have to ask for what I need from the guys working for me, then I haven't trained them properly. And I certainly wouldn't trust them when I was away either.

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

I wouldn't want to serve on ANY Starfleet ship.

-Exploding control consoles
-Exploding corridors
-You know what, I'm just gonna put down "exploding everything"
-Inconsistent OSHA compliance
-Obtuse computer operating system
-Crappy security - one intruder is enough to cause immense shipboard damage

The operating procedures for Starfleet ships as seen onscreen are borderline suicidal at best. You'd be safer riding a bicycle in the middle of an intersection in Hanoi.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Boy, I sure as shit don't want to serve on your ship. If I have to ask for what I need from the guys working for me, then I haven't trained them properly.

Speak for yourself. I wouldn't want to serve on a starship where you have to have a PhD in eight different fields just to qualify for a command position.

There's a REASON we have a science officer, isn't there?

Helmsman: The Klingon ships are closing on us, Sir!
Captain: Engineering, can you get the warp drive back online?
Engineer: The antimatter inducers have depolarized, I'm gonna have to recalibrate the main energizers and reroute warp plasma through the quant--
Captain: That was a yes or no question, Chief, I didn't ask for your life story.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I wouldn't want to serve on ANY Starfleet ship.

-Exploding control consoles
-Exploding corridors
-You know what, I'm just gonna put down "exploding everything"
-Inconsistent OSHA compliance
-Obtuse computer operating system
-Crappy security - one intruder is enough to cause immense shipboard damage

The operating procedures for Starfleet ships as seen onscreen are borderline suicidal at best. You'd be safer riding a bicycle in the middle of an intersection in Hanoi.

Apart from the fact that a random alien with no experience with your system and no training in infomration warfare is able to lock your bridge officers out of key systems with a six-button keypad in the mess hall.

 

[trevanian]

Boy, I sure as shit don't want to serve on your ship. If I have to ask for what I need from the guys working for me, then I haven't trained them properly.

Speak for yourself. I wouldn't want to serve on a starship where you have to have a PhD in eight different fields just to qualify for a command position.

There's a REASON we have a science officer, isn't there?

Helmsman: The Klingon ships are closing on us, Sir!
Captain: Engineering, can you get the warp drive back online?
Engineer: The antimatter inducers have depolarized, I'm gonna have to recalibrate the main energizers and reroute warp plasma through the quant--
Captain: That was a yes or no question, Chief, I didn't ask for your life story.

Rather than letting this degenerate to the next level -- probably a lesson in screenwriting, which would take it further afield -- howzabout we agree neither of us would find serving on the other's ship satisfactory, no matter what the fleet?

You keep your NUtrek, I'll be content in just about any other 'verse except LucasLand.

 

[Cary L. Brown]

Boy, I sure as shit don't want to serve on your ship. If I have to ask for what I need from the guys working for me, then I haven't trained them properly.

Speak for yourself. I wouldn't want to serve on a starship where you have to have a PhD in eight different fields just to qualify for a command position.

There's a REASON we have a science officer, isn't there?

Helmsman: The Klingon ships are closing on us, Sir!
Captain: Engineering, can you get the warp drive back online?
Engineer: The antimatter inducers have depolarized, I'm gonna have to recalibrate the main energizers and reroute warp plasma through the quant--
Captain: That was a yes or no question, Chief, I didn't ask for your life story.

Newtype, I just have to ask...

Have you actually served? From someone who was a staff officer for a fair number of years... aka SOMEONE WHO REPORTED DIRECTLY TO THE COMMANDER... and an intelligence officer no less... aka SOMEONE WHO WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR PRETTY MUCH EXACTLY WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT...

I can tell you that any officer who withheld information from his commanding officer, who made the commanding officer ASK FOR IT... would be tossed out on his ass pretty much immediately.

The job of the crew is to provide information, at the time which is most appropriate. Not to play "hide the information" with the captain.

Trek has been consistent with this approach. Some of the best examples I can think of off-hand are in TWOK, but it's common throughout the series.

An officer... let's say Spock... makes an observation.

Does he:

• Wait until he knows exactly what it is?
• Report that he's identified SOMETHING... and continue his analysis in real-time?

The answer is... it depends. The job of the trained crewmember is to know when to raise the flag early and when to "sit on it" 'til he knows more.

If you're at full alert, rushing into an unknown situation with no communications... any officer who detects odd readings who DOESN'T bring it to his chain-of-command should be court-martialed for negligence.

If I'd gotten a field report that MIGHT indicate, say, a column of tanks... or might indicate some farm equipment in operation... I'd immediately report that we'd observed SOMETHING... and continue to collect information and task assets to confirm what we were really looking at.

To do otherwise would have, at BEST, gotten me fired... doing KP duty for the rest of my time in service. At worst... if I'd failed to inform the Batallion Commander and as a result, men died, I could, and SHOULD, have been court-martialed, convicted, and punished for such horrifically sloppy and self-absorbed work.

So, Newtype... I'll ask it again. Have you served? Or are you just playing "make believe?"

Because the "make believe" thing is what Abrams was doing... he's a "wunderkind" who got where he has because of a combination of a connected daddy and and a fair amount of talent... and his "Kirk" is parallel to himself.

The real world... and in particular the chain-of-command-driven MILITARY (or, in the case of something like Starfleet, "paramilitary") world... doesn't work like that.

And if it ever does start working like that, well, the human race will be on its last legs, because the first serious enemy to come along will wipe us out.

I wonder... if Nero had shown up in the Trek universe of Gene Roddenberry, Gene Coon, RF Black, etc, etc... would the fleet have flown into an unknown situation with no intelligence? Would Sulu have been allowed to sit at the helm of a ship where he was clearly not yet qualified? Would Spock have been permitted to fuck a subordinate, directly under his command? Would a guy with three years at the academy and NO real-world experience be given command of the most powerful ship in the fleet, bypassing officers with decades more experience than he has, based upon a single success? Would a man assigned to a planetary base be immediately made chief engineer of a major starship, rather than merely promoting the next-highest-ranking engineer who was actually QUALIFIED ON THE SHIP?

The only promotion which made ANY sense was McCoy... but even then, it's hard to imagine that the ship only had ONE medical officer on board besides McCoy. At least McCoy was a qualified doctor before ever joining Starfleet...

The movie has plot-holes left and right. Most of which are based upon Abrams' "Hollywood wunderkind" status, and his projecting that onto Trek... egotism, in other words.

I'm not sure why you, who often seem to be fairly rational and logical in discussions I've seen in the past, seem to be so dedicated to defending this movie from any criticism whatsoever. It's not like we have any "loyalty" to any product which gets put out with the Trek name stuck on it. Those of us who see the flaws in this film and discuss them aren't being "unfaithful."

I see it as the movie being unfaithful... or rather, the moviemakers. Not just to us, but to significant principles of good storytelling (consistency, logical background structures, etc). The movie could have been made without most of the flaws we see. The flaws are just that... FLAWS. They're real, and it's not "bad" to point them out... why do you seem to be acting as though it is?

 

[USS Jack Riley]

I can tell you that any officer who withheld information from his commanding officer, who made the commanding officer ASK FOR IT... would be tossed out on his ass pretty much immediately.

The job of the crew is to provide information, at the time which is most appropriate. Not to play "hide the information" with the captain.

Trek has been consistent with this approach. Some of the best examples I can think of off-hand are in TWOK, but it's common throughout the series.

An officer... let's say Spock... makes an observation.

Does he:

• Wait until he knows exactly what it is?
• Report that he's identified SOMETHING... and continue his analysis in real-time?

The answer is... it depends. The job of the trained crewmember is to know when to raise the flag early and when to "sit on it" 'til he knows more.

Wasn't there a TNG episode that dealt with this very same issue? Can't remember the name of the ep, but it dealt with a Benzite who did not report information about an unexplained lifeform eating at the Enterprise's nacelle struts that had been transferred to a Klingons ship resulting in a certain unpleasantness between the affected Klingon ship and the Enteprise. The reason given by the Benzite was that it was against Benzite protocol to notify the captain until there was an adequate solution to the problem.

Remind me never to seek transport aboard a Benzite vessel.

 

[BillJ]

I can tell you that any officer who withheld information from his commanding officer, who made the commanding officer ASK FOR IT... would be tossed out on his ass pretty much immediately.

The job of the crew is to provide information, at the time which is most appropriate. Not to play "hide the information" with the captain.

Trek has been consistent with this approach. Some of the best examples I can think of off-hand are in TWOK, but it's common throughout the series.

An officer... let's say Spock... makes an observation.

Does he:

• Wait until he knows exactly what it is?
• Report that he's identified SOMETHING... and continue his analysis in real-time?

The answer is... it depends. The job of the trained crewmember is to know when to raise the flag early and when to "sit on it" 'til he knows more.

Wasn't there a TNG episode that dealt with this very same issue? Can't remember the name of the ep, but it dealt with a Benzite who did not report information about an unexplained lifeform eating at the Enterprise's nacelle struts that had been transferred to a Klingons ship resulting in a certain unpleasantness between the affected Klingon ship and the Enteprise. The reason given by the Benzite was that it was against Benzite protocol to notify the captain until there was an adequate solution to the problem.

Remind me never to seek transport aboard a Benzite vessel.

A Matter of Honor

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I can tell you that any officer who withheld information from his commanding officer, who made the commanding officer ASK FOR IT... would be tossed out on his ass pretty much immediately.

Withholding information is one thing. Volunteering unnecessary information is another. In point of fact I'm aware that alot of this otherwise extraneous information and the need to express it is EXACTLY why most services maintain the practice of "written reports."

Take the analogy of a submarine, for example. On newer ships, the sonar computers can churn out a fairly detailed analysis that can distinguish one ship from another based on distinct sound patterns. These patterns are saved in the computer so the sonar operator can recognize a ship they have encountered before. So a submarine encounters an Akula class in the Bering Strait records this contact as, say, "Master 34" before loosing contact. Six months later they encounter it again in the South Pacific and the computer analyzes the signal and confirms that it is indeed Master 34; the sonar operator reports this to the Conn, because that's all the Conn needs to know.

Now I ask you: is he going to get demoted because he didn't explain to the Conn all the various harmonic analysis and frequency shifts that lead to the identification of Master 34? As far as I know, he is not. In fact the Navy in particular and the Air Force to a much larger extent have spent a great many years streamlining their own etiquette to PREVENT an excessive amount of chatter in verbal reports to make them as concise as possible.

Trek has been consistent with this approach. Some of the best examples I can think of off-hand are in TWOK, but it's common throughout the series.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. When Spock sees an energy emission from the Reliant, he says "Their shields are going up." He doesn't say something complicated like "Picking up a high energy radiation surge from the Reliant's shield generators that suggests they have just raised their shields." When he doesn't know what he's looking at he says "Sporadic energy readings, portside aft. Could be an impulse turn." Kirk doesn't need to know what kind of energy readings they are, nor does he need to know a definition of "sporadic" or be presented with the details of which sensor set detected those energy readings; the pertinent part comes from the phrase "could be an impulse turn."

I'm saying there's plenty of room for pertinent detail in verbal reports... it's just that technobabble is rarely pertinent or even particularly useful.