That's what I assumed as well.
Spock was only 'in-universe' for a short time before Vulcan was destroyed.
Lightning Storm? What Lightning Storm? [SPOILER ALERT!]
- Thread starter TJ Sinclair
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That's what I assumed as well.
Spock was only 'in-universe' for a short time before Vulcan was destroyed.
Basically, then, it wouldn't be a plot hole (which I think the movie didn't have in abundance). It would merely be a plot contrivance - which in turn the movie was heavily ballasted with.
Kirk wouldn't have been able to tell Pike it was a trap unless he mistook Spock's arrival for a sign of Nero's evil antics. A coincidence and a contrivance. But so was the fact that Earth only had cadets and second-rate ships available at the critical hour; not a plot hole, since it's perfectly possible for Starfleet's best men and ships to be engaged in some other task at the time of any given Kirk adventure - but certainly a coincidence and thus a contrivance. Having Kirk's friend McCoy become the CMO of Kirk's starship at a time of crisis was also possible, but contrived. And so forth.
I don't think there was anything in the movie that would have been impossible by the rules of the Trek universe. But the whole movie was a big pile of things that were plausible alone, but highly improbable in combination, in the Trek universe.
Timo Saloniemi
Kirk wouldn't have been able to tell Pike it was a trap unless he mistook Spock's arrival for a sign of Nero's evil antics. A coincidence and a contrivance. But so was the fact that Earth only had cadets and second-rate ships available at the critical hour; not a plot hole, since it's perfectly possible for Starfleet's best men and ships to be engaged in some other task at the time of any given Kirk adventure - but certainly a coincidence and thus a contrivance. Having Kirk's friend McCoy become the CMO of Kirk's starship at a time of crisis was also possible, but contrived. And so forth.
I don't think there was anything in the movie that would have been impossible by the rules of the Trek universe. But the whole movie was a big pile of things that were plausible alone, but highly improbable in combination, in the Trek universe.
Timo Saloniemi
Two things here....
1) The "lightning storm" observed was related to Spock's return. Oddly, Kirk made his assumption re: the Narada based upon an INCORRECT ASSUMPTION. If Nero hadn't been waiting on Spock, Kirk wouldn't have had a clue, and if Spock had come through without Nero being there waiting on him, Kirk would have assumed the worst and likely ended up blowing Spock out of the sky.
In other words... it's a scriptwriting contrivance, but not really all that logical if you take a moment to think about it.
2) "Lightning storm in space?" Okay, I get it... Abrams wanted to avoid anything resembling "technobabble." But "lightning" is an atmospheric phenomenon. I find it... troublesome... that they had these supposed space travelers calling this "lightning." Real astrophysicists wouldn't call it that... and it's not "technobabble" if you're using real scientific terminology. Unfortunately, it seems that the folks doing this movie are uncomfortable with that sort of thing.
You could have stated that there was a "massive energy discharge" at that location and that would have made sense. But "lightning storm?"
Now, regarding "coming out of warp" and mysteriously discovering the wreckage of the fleet... I guess that means that in this Trek-universe they don't have any form of FTL communications system? Must make for very slow reaction times to crises... Nero would have been waiting at Vulcan for 25 years just for the damned radio signal to get to Earth! Seriously... an organized fleet effort is underway and nobody bothers to maintain "radio contact?"
The implication was that their sensors weren't operable at warp, or at least not to that resolution. Which poses a few questions WRT Enterprise, but is otherwise fine.
Honestly----the lightning storm, the exchange about time travel being "cheating", a few other things.....all make me think that the writer's strike may have caught the script in the middle of an edit or something. Everything's fairly good, but there's just enough head-scratching moments to make me wonder.
Nope. They had plenty of time and plenty of warning - months - for handling that kind of revision before the strike. The only thing that Abrams or anyone else has ever suggested that they missed was the opportunity to come up with "great lines" on set.
They liked this script - the plot, the structure, the reasoning - just fine by the time they started shooting.
There's dialogue, BTW, where they explicitly say they're trying to contact the fleet or pick up any transmissions from Vulcan or the Romulans - while they're at warp. They note with concern that they are unable to, so that base is covered.
I thought their sensors weren't working because of Nero's drilling rig and that they just assumed the loss of communications was due to the 'storm'. Not that they are blind at warp under normal conditions.
I guess the storm was Spock's portal, but that leads to several questions. Why didn't he come out at the same point as Nero? If the hole opens in a random spot, why so close to Vulcan? And how did Nero know? And why is Delta Vega a vulcan moon?
And most troubling of all: What if it had been cloudier on Delta Vega? Spock wouldn't be able to see Vulcan's destruction. Nero would've been pissed.
"I will destroy all the weather forecasters in the universe!"
I guess the storm was Spock's portal, but that leads to several questions. Why didn't he come out at the same point as Nero? If the hole opens in a random spot, why so close to Vulcan? And how did Nero know? And why is Delta Vega a vulcan moon?
And most troubling of all: What if it had been cloudier on Delta Vega? Spock wouldn't be able to see Vulcan's destruction. Nero would've been pissed.
"I will destroy all the weather forecasters in the universe!"
I'd be more inclined to think that the folks doing this movie felt the audience might be uncomfortable with that sort of thing. This truly was one of the (if not the) first films meant for an audience not familiar (especially intimately familiar) with how Trek dealt with fictional science. Using a mundane term "mundane" people (here used to describe a non-fan and not meant as an epithet or insult) could relate to would, IMO, tie into this, even if it was scientifically inaccurate and could have been handled with the usual Trek technobabble (which would have gone over the "mundane" folk's heads).
I do not believe the lightning storm dialogue. Maybe unknown energy discharge might have made it more plausible?
They weren't suggesting at all that it was a lightning storm. The first time that term was used was in a sentence like... "Unknown anomaly resembling a ... lightning storm...?" As if they couldn't determine exactly what it was, and that just became a shorthand way of referring to it.
That's perfectly acceptable to me. They didn't mean that it actually was a lightning storm. Don't take things so literally.
That's perfectly acceptable to me. They didn't mean that it actually was a lightning storm. Don't take things so literally.
Well, I really doubt that if they'd used terminology like "electrical discharge of tremendous intensity occurring near Vulcan" rather than "lightning storm in space" that the audience would have been confused.
But I do think you're right about the "why" of it. This was an example of... honestly... insulting the intelligence of the audience, though, if you look at it that way. Very, very few people would be likely to go to a sci-fi flick if they're frightened by the use of words like "electrical discharge."
Of course, maybe it wasn't an "electrical discharge" at all (which, honestly, seems all the more likely, being as there's no conductive medium, no source for electrons or positively-charge ions... NOTHING that supports any form of "electrical activity" whatsoever... in space). If that's the case... the use of an "electrical discharge"... or a "lightning storm in space"... is just nonsensical spouting of words to sound cool without any respect for their meaning.
Hey, isn't "nonsensical spouting of words to sound cool without any respect for their meaning" largely the definition of "technobabble" in the first place?
So, this film DOES have "technobabble." It's just "dumbed down" technobabble. Whew, what a relief... and here we thought it was a departure from the Trek we've been given for the past couple of decades.
FYI, if I were writing that sequence, I'd have had the line be something more along the line of "Captain, I'm picking up a massive cascade of radiation in the ultra-high-frequency range coming from coordinates just outside of the Epsilon Eridani system... Vulcan, sir!"
It did not occur to me at first that "lightning storm" = "black hole" but in retrospect I'd say it had to be Spock's arrival. A tad convenient. I, too, shuddered a bit at the "lightning storm in space" terminology, because it seemed to imply a lack of understanding of just what was going on. Then again, that may have been the intent.
That was the feeling I had too, whether accurate or not.
I like it, if only for the intent and the Epsilon Eridani reference. I think an even simpler approach could have worked while still sounding scientific.
That was the feeling I had too, whether accurate or not.
I like it, if only for the intent and the Epsilon Eridani reference. I think an even simpler approach could have worked while still sounding scientific.
Could have gone for the old, vague standby of "I've never seen anything like it."
But then, of course, Kirk wouldn't have been all "OMG LIGHTNIN STARM"
But then, of course, Kirk wouldn't have been all "OMG LIGHTNIN STARM"
Oh, c'mon... let's be fair...
The line would've been "OMG LIGHTIN STARM... MAN."
Agreed, but in the spirit of the movie and to paraphrase of what Spock Prime said, "This story and crew are destined to happen", one way or another.
Contrivances (fate or destiny if you will) have always been a big part of Trek. Indeed, it's a part of a lot of successful sci-fi and fantasy stories.
trevanian
Rear Admiral
A lot of OTHER stories, but less so with TREK. Yeah, there are 'saved in the nick' stories, but not because stuff is left to fate.
These folks choose to act or not act, they don't just sit back and let destiny unfold (well, Spock might start thinking that way around TUC, but he ain't really Spock at that point, he's probably half Nimoy and half Meyer, and that's not half bad, its worse than that.)
Timo and Cary pretty much have it pegged. It's either a plot hole (given the lack of explanation on screen) or a plot contrivance (if we explain it away with Spock's arrival), in either case one of a series. He's also right about the terminology simply "sounding dumb" -- and what's worse, a huge plot point hinges on Starfleet members consistently using such dumb terminology, since presumably Kirk wouldn't have realized the parallel unless the Kelvin crew 25 years earlier had described the phenomenon with the same scientifically illiterate analogy.
And I hadn't previously thought about the lack of a subspace radio warning from the six ships that got to Vulcan earlier. One more plot hole to add to the list...
And I hadn't previously thought about the lack of a subspace radio warning from the six ships that got to Vulcan earlier. One more plot hole to add to the list...
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