Let's Talk about Ferengi

[Whizkid]

Revisiting an earlier post from TNG:

It would appear that ST needs to resolve the "Ferengi" issue. DS9 managed to flesh out one of the most important species, next to Vulcans, Romulans or Klingons: the Ferengi!

Cardassians, Bajorans, Xindi etc. appear much later (within Canon literature).

Now, the obvious Ferengis are Quark, Rom and Nog.

But what about Ishka? (Their mother / grandmother)?

The only "feminist" character in all of ST? (Fan service? I don't think so.)

Ishka is the clue to the questions DS9 poses.

 

[kkt]

The Ferengi in TNG were a creation of lazy writing, a collection of repulsive stereotypes. DS9's mission regarding Ferengi was explicitly to fill them out, make them real characters with a mixture of admirable and repulsive traits.

Ishka did seem to take on her whole society with not much to go on. In Earth western society feminism took several waves to accomplish. More women in the workforce and stretching the traditional limits of women's work a bit during wars, then retreating after peace brought the men home, advanced more as living on a single wage became more difficult, and more as more women starting graduating college. It took several generations of gradually increasing rights in education and the workplace before you could really expect to see women in any job - yet Ishka managed it all by herself, and mostly in secret!

 

[Whizkid]

The Ferengi in TNG were a creation of lazy writing, a collection of repulsive stereotypes. DS9's mission regarding Ferengi was explicitly to fill them out, make them real characters with a mixture of admirable and repulsive traits.

Ishka did seem to take on her whole society with not much to go on. In Earth western society feminism took several waves to accomplish. More women in the workforce and stretching the traditional limits of women's work a bit during wars, then retreating after peace brought the men home, advanced more as living on a single wage became more difficult, and more as more women starting graduating college. It took several generations of gradually increasing rights in education and the workplace before you could really expect to see women in any job - yet Ishka managed it all by herself, and mostly in secret!

^ This is entirely true. Thanks for keeping TrekBBS real.

I was just wondering, in a show known for, er, presenting women in a certain way, does Ishka not pose some sort of challenge?

Precisely the waves of feminism you refer to, perhaps Ferengi society did not have to go through it? After all, they are not hoo-maan, they're Ferengi. Perhaps all it took was for a Ferengi woman, (no "simple" woman, she's after all Quark and Rom's Moogie, and the Nagus' consort,) to just say: nope, not gonna clothe myself forever.

The only part of your post I disagree with is that DS9 was lazy about Ferengi. I can accept that about TNG. But DS9?

Still, thank you. Thanks for keeping it real.

 

[Whizkid]

^ This is entirely true. Thanks for keeping TrekBBS real.

I was just wondering, in a show known for, er, presenting women in a certain way, does Ishka not pose some sort of challenge?

Precisely the waves of feminism you refer to, perhaps Ferengi society did not have to go through it? After all, they are not hoo-maan, they're Ferengi. Perhaps all it took was for a Ferengi woman, (no "simple" woman, she's after all Quark and Rom's Moogie, and the Nagus' consort,) to just say: nope, not gonna clothe myself forever.

The only part of your post I disagree with is that DS9 was lazy about Ferengi. I can accept that about TNG. But DS9?

Still, thank you. Thanks for keeping it real.

Or was it clothing. Ufff, I get confused.

 

[Whizkid]

The Ferengi in TNG were a creation of lazy writing, a collection of repulsive stereotypes. DS9's mission regarding Ferengi was explicitly to fill them out, make them real characters with a mixture of admirable and repulsive traits.

Ishka did seem to take on her whole society with not much to go on. In Earth western society feminism took several waves to accomplish. More women in the workforce and stretching the traditional limits of women's work a bit during wars, then retreating after peace brought the men home, advanced more as living on a single wage became more difficult, and more as more women starting graduating college. It took several generations of gradually increasing rights in education and the workplace before you could really expect to see women in any job - yet Ishka managed it all by herself, and mostly in secret!

Ugh, you were agreeing with me. (Facepalm moment).

 

[Whizkid]

So my question remains:

Considering that TNG now has a proper end story (Picard, S3..., not Nemesis, thank God; can't wait for it!), would it not be proper for DS9 to have one too?

And if, somehow, Moogie had something to do about it, about Sisko returning, how cool would be that!

 

[Lynx]

I actually liked the Ferengi in TNG.

But they became much better in DS9.

Characters like Quark, Nog, Rom, Zek and ishka became real interesting characters, each with an own identity and interesting personality.

Quark is definitely one of my absolute favorites in Star Trek but the others are great too. I really like those small greedy trolls!

Is there no DS9 novel about Quark?
After reading A Stitch In Time, Andrew J Robinsons masterpiece about his character Garak, it would be interesting to read something similar about my other DS9 favorite Quark as well.

 

[Oddish]

Ishka did seem to take on her whole society with not much to go on. In Earth western society feminism took several waves to accomplish. More women in the workforce and stretching the traditional limits of women's work a bit during wars, then retreating after peace brought the men home, advanced more as living on a single wage became more difficult, and more as more women starting graduating college. It took several generations of gradually increasing rights in education and the workplace before you could really expect to see women in any job - yet Ishka managed it all by herself, and mostly in secret!

I truly hated that. It's like saying that if Susan B. Anthony had just gone down to Washington DC and dropped her panties for President Johnson, American women would have gotten full suffrage in 1866, with zero pushback. And I'm not sure even that's an adequate analogy, given that American women were second class citizens, while Ferengi females were essentially livestock.

Say what you want about "Angel One", it at least had a realistic take on how gender equality comes into being: slowly, over many years, one small victory at a time, and against powers that be who are determined to oppose it every step of the way.

 

[Dukhat]

I truly hated that. It's like saying that if Susan B. Anthony had just gone down to Washington DC and dropped her panties for President Johnson, American women would have gotten full suffrage in 1866, with zero pushback. And I'm not sure even that's an adequate analogy, given that American women were second class citizens, while Ferengi females were essentially livestock.

Say what you want about "Angel One", it at least had a realistic take on how gender equality comes into being: slowly, over many years, one small victory at a time, and against powers that be who are determined to oppose it every step of the way.

I’m not trying to minimize your response, since you make a good point, but the Ferengi are the comedy relief aliens of Star Trek (at least until they started using the Pakleds in Lower Decks), and I don’t think the ethics of female equality in their society was really meant to be scrutinized all that seriously. I think…

Spoiler

…that PRO showing a female Ferengi with her own ship and making profit is the best advancement we’re going to see.

 

[Oddish]

We're Trekkies. We scrutinize everything seriously.

 

[Whizkid]

"one small victory at a time"

Very well put.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I can't remember which ep this was - think it might have been Treachery, Faith and the Great River - but there was one which established how the Ferengi make a point to be greedy, but not selfish, and that the pursuit of greed (vs. selfishness) ultimately serves a greater good. I thought that was a nice touch.

I'm not sure I agree with it, but there we are.

And didn't VOY's 11:59 establish that the Ferengi actually make yearly pilgrimages to Wall Street on Earth, viewing it as a holy site of commerce?

They probably worship Gordon Gekko.

One thing I am genuinely curious about, though, is this:

Do the Ferengi always cheat?

I mean, I'm sure there's an "agreeable" amount of corruption at play here. "I am shocked, SHOCKED I tell you..." But it seems to me that it would not be in a typical Ferengi's best interest to literally always cheat. Because if word got out, they'd lose customers, and they definitely wouldn't want that...

 

[Whizkid]

No. They don't always cheat.

The Magnificent Ferengi.

Every once in a while, Quark tries to be a hero. Ferenginar must be such a lovely place! If you can handle the slugs and beetle snuff (still better than Gagh I think).

Who wants some hasperat?

(Excellent question though)

 

[Oddish]

Ferenginar must be such a lovely place!

If you like rain. There's a lot of it.

 

[Whizkid]

Nah! I don't actually. I come from a tropical country.

So all said and done, between the Vulcan, Romulan, Klingon, Cardassian etc. homeworlds, give me Bajor any day.

On this point, I'm with Sisko.

(Or perhaps Q could take me across time and space).

 

[Herbert]

We're Trekkies. We scrutinize everything seriously.

There should be a place on this site, a prominent place where anyone can see it, where quips like this are collected and posted because It's so true.

Anyhoo, getting back to Ferengi. I really dislike them because of what Trek writers and producers turned them into, which is a comic relief race. Say what you want about how they were first portrayed in TNG (and you wouldn't be wrong about stereotypes) but at least at that point they were put forth as a potentially serious antagonist to the Federation. Instead of building on that, they were transformed into a big joke.

Most of the Ferengi based episodes on DS9 rank as my least favorite of the entire series

 

[kkt]

Correct, Ferengi don't always cheat. See also "Body Parts" in which Quark very nearly dies in order to keep to his contract with Brunt. The Ferengi do seem to have higher standards for keeping to their contracts with other Ferengi as opposed to other races, though.

 

[Dukhat]

Which reminds me, one thing that always bugged me about their world, I don't remember seeing many creatures that live in a very wet environment with big ears. Most of them hate getting water in them, it may even cause infections and death in some.

I wonder what the creators were thinking.

Here's what they were thinking: The Ferengi as originally envisioned were supposed to have extremely poor eyesight. That's why when we saw them on screen for the first time aboard their ship, the surroundings were bright white light:

https://tng.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x05/thelastoutpost_hd_198.jpg

It wasn't because they were too cheap to build a Marauder bridge set; it was because the Ferengi couldn't see well. So to compensate for one sense being limited, another sense (hearing) was made more prominent. Unfortunately this had the unintended consequence of making the Ferengi look very silly and not remotely threatening.

 

[Whizkid]

There should be a place on this site, a prominent place where anyone can see it, where quips like this are collected and posted because It's so true.

Anyhoo, getting back to Ferengi. I really dislike them because of what Trek writers and producers turned them into, which is a comic relief race. Say what you want about how they were first portrayed in TNG (and you wouldn't be wrong about stereotypes) but at least at that point they were put forth as a potentially serious antagonist to the Federation. Instead of building on that, they were transformed into a big joke.

Most of the Ferengi based episodes on DS9 rank as my least favorite of the entire series

Umm, to each his own, I suppose, but perhaps a case could be made out for the DS9 Ferengi.

You see, one thing that Trek has been excellent with from the beginning is providing an outsider perspective on humans. Be it a Vulcan-Human, or an android or a God, a hologram or a reassimilated Borg or another Vulcan, or a militant and religious Bajoran woman, or two Cardassians each, in their own ways, outsiders to their own society and so on... Examples abound.

Into this cosmology of DS9, enter the Ferengi. One in which Human, Bajoran and Cardassian species have already been been assigned roles, from the first episode.

Given that religion, militancy, peacemaking and even science (Jadzia, later) were already spoken for (what remains? laughter), perhaps the Ferengi could only have occupied the comic relief part. It is a testament to the prowess of Quark, especially, that Ferengi became a plot device all by themselves. I agree that the Ferenginar episodes were often, somewhat meh.

But let us not forget Quarks ridiculing of hoomaans for eliminating money in the future. That, in itself, is major ST philosophy.

 

[Whizkid]

Afterthought:

Even the liquid people episodes were often meh. But again, major plot device.

"Ugly Bags of Mostly Water!"

Phew!

(TNG DS9 crossover happened suddenly. Not my fault.)