Let's Talk about Ferengi

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine' started by Whizkid, Oct 14, 2022.

  1. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    And you're saying that because we didn't magically and instantaneously transform from the patriarchy that encompasses most of our history to absolute social equality (a la "Profit and Lace", to stay on topic), we might as well have made no progress at all. I don't know if that's misguided idealism talking, or just defeatism. Neither philosophy will advance your cause.
     
  2. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    That's not what I said; I said the U.S. is a misogynistic, patriarchal culture and made no claims about how much relative progress it has or has not made towards equality.

    In any event, there's strong evidence that both Cardassia and the United States are patriarchal cultures.
     
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  3. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    And I respectfully disagree, for reasons already stated. Any further discussion of the issue should take place in a more relevant topic.
     
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  4. Tosk

    Tosk Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Respectfully, that is yet to be proven. You're basing a lot on a small sample size. We saw scant few female captains in Starfleet for decades worth of stories. I think maybe two or three in 30 years?
     
  5. Whizkid

    Whizkid Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Incorrect (accord is
    "Taliban"."

    Incorrect (according to me). And I'm what I am. The minutest of samples.

    B4 we go all out, examining, ridiculing, describing political theory (of which we know nothing): let's say it is what it is.
    If you really want to go there.

    Is Bajoran culture not? Think Kira Nerys...(or Ro Laren from TNG). Beautiful characters. My favourites. (Even more than 7/9 or Raffi).

    Both Laren and Nerys had difficult "father figure" relationships. Because of their history. Both, in some ways, betrayed their commanding officers and went over to the other side. Except Nerys is the very picture of resistance.

    Now here's Dukat. A complex Cardassian character. He needs Nerys to rescue his inter-species daughter. She's rescued. He woos Nerys because he knows she needs a mother figure. Then suddenly the daughter is killed. He's distraught over her death, something his patriarchal confidence could never have imagined. He goes crazy. He recovers, but is now a different man. He makes peace with his daughter's killer, Damar, who himself changes and supports the Federation eventually, because he cannot see his people subjugated by the Dominion. Damar too, dies.

    Ergo, the Bajoran resistance against the Cardassians and the Cardassian resistance against the Dominion, are. of. the. same. piece.

    Quantities of misogyny or patriarchy do not matter, if qualitatively they are the same.

    And resistance always exists. Nerys is the rule, not the exception.

    You would not have said what you did, unless resistance were possible. So patriarchy is never complete. Like capitalism, socialism, or whichever -ism.
     
  6. Whizkid

    Whizkid Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Apologies. My post got effed up from an earlier post.

    Read from "If you really want to go there"
     
  7. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    But the sample size isn't small. We've seen scores of Cardassian officers in TNG, DS9, and VOY. Of those, we've only ever seen three female officers.

    The first ten minutes of "The Cage," featured more female Starfleet officers than we saw of female Cardassian officers in the entirety of TNG, DS9, and VOY.

    Well, we've seen plenty of female Bajoran Militia officers. The ratio of men to women in the Bajoran Resistance seems to have been a bit unbalanced, but we have a much smaller sample size for the Resistance than we do for the post-occupation Militia. We never saw a female First Minister, but we saw two female Kais, and there seem to be plenty of female vedeks. I don't remember the gender ratio being unbalanced in the brief moment we saw of the Chamber of Ministers in the "Circle" trilogy. So on balance, I'd say the canonical evidence indicates Bajor is at least mostly egalitarian.
     
  8. Whizkid

    Whizkid Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Plus, boss, Duet!

     
  9. Tosk

    Tosk Vice Admiral Admiral

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    We were originally speaking of Guls specifically, which is why I mentioned captains only. But okay. :)

    Did Cardassia stop being a patriarchy when the military lost their grip on the reins? Plenty of high-ranking jobs outside of the military were filled by female Cardassians.

    Edit:
    I should have read the posts other than just the ones replying to me. :)

    If you're simply saying there is evidence rather than proof, then I agree.
     
  10. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    We don't really know, in the end, how patriarchal most of these societies are. What we do know...

    Ferengi: Women are chattel. Pure and simple.
    Klingon: Women are barred from the high council, and usually cannot lead their houses, either.
    Cardassian: The military is indeed mostly male, but women can and do hold positions of authority. Cultural bias, maybe?
    Bajoran: Men and women appear to have equal opportunities.
    Romulan: Women hold high positions in government and military.
    Dominion: Varies by race. Changelings are presumably asexual, simply adopting whatever gender suits them. Vorta are both genders. No female Jem'Hadar exist.
    Kazon: A warrior culture, probably highly discriminatory.
    Borg: Gender is irrelevant.
    Federation: Women have equal opportunity, and regularly hold positions of command and high authority. This is presumably the case with Vulcan and Andorian subcultures.
     
  11. Kor

    Kor Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I think only a few Kazon women were ever seen, and never had speaking roles.
    The way Culluh treated Seska could be an indication of typical Kazon attitudes.

    Kor
     
  12. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    And I countered by pointing out that not only had we only ever seen one female gul, we had literally only ever seen three female Cardassian officers at all, of any rank whatsoever, out of scores of Cardassian officers we had seen.

    You mean during the year and a half from 2372-2373 when the Detapa Council was actually in charge before Dukat's coup? Well, it usually takes a culture more than a year and a half to fundamentally change, but I'd certainly say they were probably taking steps towards equality.
     
  13. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Very likely, considering pretty much every Kazon Seska encountered treated her like shit, just like Culluh did.

    Although Culluh did seem genuinely upset at Seska's death.
     
  14. Kor

    Kor Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    It seemed to be more that Cardassian men weren't considered to have the right kinds of smarts for the sciences or engineering. At first Gilora was rather dismissive toward O'Brien, saying, "Men just don't seem to have a head for this sort of thing. That's why women dominate the sciences."

    Kor
     
  15. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I was as well, for a different reason. Seska deserved better than a redshirt exploding console death.
     
  16. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    But that's not evidence of sexual equality because, again, scientists are not the ruling class -- the military is.

    In fact, the presence of that stereotype ("men aren't good at science") is consistent with patriarchy; patriarchal cultures often code certain industries as "feminine" and teach that men aren't good at that particular field -- think of the way child educators and nurses are often coded in U.S. culture as feminine fields. The key thing that most industries coded as "feminine" in patriarchal cultures have in common is that they are not fields whose members are ascribed high status or influence -- just like scientists do not seem to have high status or influence on Cardassia.
     
  17. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I could tell you some stories on that subject.
     
  18. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    I don't doubt it. There are, of course, plenty of male educators and nurses, but there's still a lot of sexism at play in our culture over who is "supposed" to hold those jobs.
     
  19. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Random Aside: I had a female friend who grew up in a fundamentalist patriarchal community who threw herself into science as a way to rebel and spite on it. I spoke to her years later and stated male dominated academia was the second most sexist and misogynist place she'd ever worked in.
     
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  20. Whizkid

    Whizkid Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Thanks Charles. Which was the first?

    Phew! This post has gone waaaays without intention. I love Trek BBS for precisely this reason.

    If I could close the topic: yes, Cardassians are misogynist and patriarchal. It is also the case that the cracks in misogyny or patriarchy have been explored best with the Cardassians.