Let's Talk about Ferengi
- Thread starter Whizkid
- Start date
Not sure I see why the Ferengi needed to be more resolved.....I agree with others, that Ishka as a one-woman revolution reforming all of Ferengi society was unrealistic, not parallel to any earth situation (that I know of) but it’s understood the Ferengi are intended as comic relief characters- -not lazy writing.
It really surprised me that anyone would think Ishka was the only feminist in Trek – even back in TOS there were women characters who were definitely feminist--they weren't necessarily trying to change the world.
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The Kazon. Though you might not call that a well-developed Trek society. (Did you mean 'well developed' as in 'with a solid economic base and well-established societal structures and institutions' or as in 'decently fleshed out'?)
Well, the thread is about Ferengi, so I don’t mean to divert. But, if you’re defining “feminist” as a character actively working against male chauvinism, it’s true there aren’t many. What I meant was, there are authoritative and/or assertive women characters throughout the ST series. If you’re specifically asking about TOS, I’d say Number One, Uhura, the Romulan commander, Dr. Helen Noel, Dr. Miranda Jones, Edith Keeler, T’Pau, T’Pring, Amanda, Nancy Hedford, Elaan, Nona, Natira, Mara, Losira, Vanna, Dr. Janice Lester.
The two most obvious examples in DS9 would be Dax and Kira.
Ishka seemed more sneaky and subversive in her actions as a feminist...at least about finance - the clothes, not so much!
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It's not that feminism is not necessary when women's rights and equality are respected; it's that feminism in such a scenario is a hegemonic ideology rather than being a dissenting ideology or a factional ideology.
Cardassian women don't seem to have full equality; it's rare to see women serve as officers in the Cardassian Guard and scientific curiosity seems to be stereotyped as a feminine trait.
The Ferengi on DS9 managed to do a lot of fascinating stories but they're all humorous and lighthearted ones, which has notably driven some people UP THE WALL for decades because they gloss over so many issues. The treatment of Ferengi females is never treated as anything other than a joke and everything works out in the end. For those who want to deal with it seriously, there's absolutely nothing to latch onto.
And for people who want to talk about human trafficking, sexism, and misogyny that all of the Ferengi jokes imply--nope!
Just not there.
Mind you, the Ferengi being used for oddball comic relief is probably the best because they were an incredibly poor critique of capitalism. There's no such thing seemingly as a corporation and they're all indiviual merchants with very few systems of organized oppression.
And for people who want to talk about human trafficking, sexism, and misogyny that all of the Ferengi jokes imply--nope!
Just not there.
Mind you, the Ferengi being used for oddball comic relief is probably the best because they were an incredibly poor critique of capitalism. There's no such thing seemingly as a corporation and they're all indiviual merchants with very few systems of organized oppression.
The Emerald Chain was a better half-hearted stab at it, but I'm still waiting for Star Trek to feature a more comprehensive and realistic -- and horrifying -- depiction of the evils of capitalism.
We've seen exactly one female gul -- Ocett from "The Chase." We have seen only two other female Cardassian officers in all of the rest of TNG, DS9, and VOY -- the unnamed female officer in DS9 "Cardassians," and the unnamed officer from the Vetar in TNG "Preemptive Strike." Given the scores of male Cardassian officers we've seen, this strongly implies systemic exclusion of women from the Cardassian military (and therefore from the Central Command and its dictatorship). So while women on Cardassia probably have relatively more rights than women on many planets, I still think Cardassia qualifies as a form of patriarchy.
Yeah, but I usually find those depictions to be somewhat shallow and lacking in a systemic analysis of capitalism per se. "This corporation is evil" is a somewhat different idea to convey than "private ownership of the means of production is bad."
True. It might be a cultural preference rather than an actual rule. The US Military accepts both sexes and has had full equal opportunity since 2015 (when women were allowed in combat roles), but male soldiers still outnumber females.
Which is, in and of itself, evidence of probable patriarchy in the culture. If men and women were truly equal, they would be entering the military in roughly equal numbers. Instead the ratio we see canonically is probably something in the area of 100:1.
That's a bad example if you're trying to argue Cardassia isn't a patriarchal culture, because the U.S. is itself a deeply misogynistic, patriarchal culture.
But...but..."misogynistic, patriarchal"... which country in the world today (of the presently existing 195, counting the Vatican and Palestine), is NOT?!
Are we absolutely sure Trek BBS isn't?!
In a recent post in the TNG section on a Beverly vs. Pulaski thread (who do you like better?), a member said something to the effect (paraphrasing): neither, cuz they're both women!
Hate the sin, not the sinner. Just saying.
Apologies for going meta.
None of them. Who said any of them weren't? That's not the point though. The point is that the profoundly unbalanced ratio of male to female officers in the Cardassian Guard is a strong indicator that Cardassian culture is patriarchal.
That would be a defensible argument if scientists on Cardassia constituted the ruling class. But Cardassia during TNG and DS9 was a military dictatorship; scientists were not the ones with the power. The military was, and the military discriminated against women. Cardassia was a patriarchy.
Sorry, but you are not making a reality-based argument if you're going to argue the U.S. is not a patriarchal society. Women as a cohort are not paid equally to men; women make up a much lower percentage of the leadership of powerful institutions than men; women make up fewer corporate CEOs than men; women are elected to legislative and executive offices at lower rates than men; women make up fewer Member of Congress than men; women make up fewer Supreme Court justices than men; there has never been a female Chief Justice of the Supreme Court; there has never been a female U.S. President; women are routinely sexually objectified in our media; sexual assaults against women are exceedingly common and are prosecuted and convicted at exceedingly low rates; and women lack legal rights over their own bodies that men enjoy.
That's like arguing Jack the Ripper can't be a murderer because Ted Bundy killed more people.
