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Let's cut bits off of babies, yes?

Yeah, those are all directly comparable, you must have given that a lot of thought :lol:

So what's your criteria for bodily harm, exactly?

Losing a healthy body part by the hand of another, without your consent and for cosmetic or cultural reasons rather than medical necessity seems like a good one.

You could've just said "circumcision". :lol:

Nonetheless, it is a forced and irreversible cosmetic change that is indisputably injurious to the body. You can jump through as many hoops as you want, but that won't change.

You're the only one jumping through hoops here. Stick with 'disfigurement' or 'mutilation', those terms at least have implied physical reference points, the most they can be accused of is being hyperbolic, as opposed to this tortuous definition of harm you're working with.
 
If my doctor does a 180 and says circumcision is wrong, then we'll talk.

Let's just hope your doctor doesn't tell you to march off a cliff in the meantime or something.

Mountainous literature on the subject - as much of it 'pro' as 'against' - is a mere click away. How you can decline to exercise even the slightest intellectual independence in favour of 'daddy knows best' is beyond me.
 
I'm strongly opposed to infant circumcision and believe it should be illegal. If someone chooses himself to be circumcised, that's his business, but to decide for a helpless child what body parts he will or will not have is morally wrong.

I used to have a lot of anger toward my parents for having me circumcised. I had a very difficult discussion with my mom about it. I've forgiven them and have mostly gotten over it, but whenever I hear about it, it makes me very angry.

A friend of mine was planning to have his son circumcised, but I was able to talk him out of it. When he divorced and was wife inevitably gained custody, she planned to have the procedure done, but my friend was able to get a judge to declare that she needed his permission to do that.
 
If I was not circ'ed and was just now finding out that the procedure existed, I'd probably be rather pissed (pardon the pun :lol: ) since I'm sure it hurts a LOT more for adults...and they remember the pain.

Which really should be the crux of this topic. The baby is going to experience the pain (and I'll argue the pain is the same for any age) but isn't going to remember it. I mean shots for vaccinations are painful and usually the child has forgotten them by the time they get their sucker.

To say that the pain/trauma of the circumcision is going to affect the child's life in any way whatsoever is just plain lying and not founded on the reality that the vast majority of men in America have been circumcised and, somehow, are doing just fine because of it the "trauma" of the circumcision when they were an hour old not withstanding.

That's what gets the most about the circumcision argument. I mean I'll go along with the idea that it has no medical benefit, the idea that it has no meaningful medical drawbacks (other than what goes along with any medical procedure, that-is the slim chance for error, infection or otherwise) and that it's pretty much just done for the hell of it for cosmetic reasons.

Fine. The child still isn't going to remember a damn thing and when he gets old he's not going to know any different or, like most rational people, not even give a damn.

I don't give a shit about the loss of foreskin. I don't know what it was supposed to do for me, or what I am missing without it, so, whatever. And any claims from men who were circumcised as adults who claim there's a "feeling difference" is anecdotal as there's a pretty strong effect of "it feels different because he believes it's different." There's no way of knowing if the feeling is "really" better, worse, or whatever.

So, really, what we're talking about is the pointless removal of a flap of skin that's all things being equal is pointless to begin with.

Cry me a river. Parents are entrusted to make the best choices for their child as the child is incapable of making these choices their/himself. That the child may not have made the choice for their self decades later, looking back, is irrelevant. The parents have to make the choice and the best choice they can on the information they have.

Some adults argue vaccination carries no benefit (and claim that it has, unfounded and falsely claimed, side-effects) and shouldn't be done to a child. Yet we do it. Should we stop vaccinating children? Leaving it for them to decide when they're an adult and have the facts to make an informed decision for them-self? I mean there's those falsified reports and claims that it just might, maybe, possibly, but not-really cause Autism. Should a parent really take that risk? I mean what are the odds of the child getting the measles, anyway?

Parents make the best choice they can for the kid. So long as that choice isn't actively harming the child then who are we to tell them what they can and cannot do? If there's real harm being caused, yeah, speak out. But if a parent believes there's medical benefits, social benefits or religious benefits to circumcision then they should be allowed to do it. Keep your opinions about my son's cock to yourself.

If he grows up and hates me for it, cool. He's that 1 in 100-million boys who does that. Write a book about it, son. I did it because I thought it was in your best interest. Just like your shots, just like your corrective-eye surgery, just like your diet and exercise program and just like sending you to public school. I did my best and look where you are because of it.

I don't have my foreskin and I don't care a bit and I certainly don't have a hate for my parents because of it or any lasting psychological trauma over something that happened over the course of a few seconds 32 years ago. And I don't blame other people for doing the same to their child. I honestly don't care that much about other peoples' babies' penises.
 
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Mountainous literature on the subject - as much of it 'pro' as 'against'

Well, there you go. ;)

I'm actually surprised that nobody here has bothered to challenge the notion that there's no medical justification for routine circumcision.

In any case, I'd rather someone be devoutly 'pro' circumcision having researched the subject and given it some thought than implacably 'anti' on the basis of a single doctor's say-so.

Which really should be the crux of this topic. The baby is going to experience the pain (and I'll argue the pain is the same for any age) but isn't going to remember it. I mean shots for vaccinations are painful and usually the child has forgotten them by the time they get their sucker.

To inflict pain on another for arbitrary or self-gratifying purposes is, I think, one of the more unambiguous definitions of evil.

I don't give a shit about the loss of foreskin. I don't know what it was supposed to do for me, or what I am missing without it, so, whatever.

I'm fondling my foreskin right now. It's pretty awesome.
 
I wonder about any definition of harm that doesn't include losing a body part. It may not impact people's lives in a harmful way, but losing a body part is pretty much the definition of coming to harm.
:rolleyes:Not if the loss of that body part has no negative result.

I work in a centre for teaching deaf and vi children. I can assure you a blind child born blind has no negative result in her own world view from being blind, nor does a child born deaf. It is the way they are and it's fine. It's the same for any child born with a disability. What they grow up with is normal. Your claim is based on the fact you know nothing else.
 
If he grows up and hates me for it, cool. He's that 1 in 100-million boys who does that. Right a book about it, son. I did it because I thought it was in your best interest.

None of that is supportable. A you have no idea how many men resent their parents for what was done to them. None. You did it to your son because you're conditioned to think that way and for no other reason. I don't know what you feel about other ritual cutting of babies and children but you're just as conditioned as the people who perpetuate all of these practices.
 
. . . justifying unnecessary surgery by saying the removed parts can be used elsewhere takes us down a slippery slope.
"Soylent Green is FORESKINS!!!" :eek:
Exactly. Yuck.

Since the procedure is harmless and some people are required by their religion to undergo it, there is no reason for elected officials to step in and try and ban it. And if the removed material can be used for something that helps people all the better. Nothing slippery about this slope. If you don't want to get your kid circumcised then don't. If other people choose differently it's none of your business.
No procedure is harmless that involves removal of a body part; and it carries additional risks. It should be illegal to perform any such non-indicated operations on a child, no matter what their religion requires of them. And using "harvesting" as further justification for unnecessary procedures just makes it that much worse.

I would assert that it would be quite impossible for you to demonstrate long-term harm from circumcisions because no such harm exists. I have brought this up repeatedly, you have consistently failed to concede the point. That is a reframing of the argument.
It's not a reframing of anything. The argument is that cosmetic surgical procedures should not be performed on children.

Comparing this to polygamy or marrying underage children is completely disingenuous: both of those are outlawed because they cause harm. The only possible justification one can have for outlawing a practice is if it causes harm. Additionally, those things are already illegal: saying you're just trying to hold everyone to the same legal standard when you're advocating changing the legal standard without a rational argument for doing so doesn't hold. Using loaded words like "mutilation", which I think I've shown fairly well that circumcision is not, serves to do nothing but create an image of harm where no harm actually exists.
Makes no difference if it's currently legal or not. And banning the cosmetic removal of body parts from infants is about as rational-- and obvious and common sense-- as it gets.

The bottom line is that circumcision is a religious practice. Banning it without a rational justification is counter to the principles that the United States was founded on.
Nonsense. It should be banned for everybody.
 
So what's your criteria for bodily harm, exactly?

Losing a healthy body part by the hand of another, without your consent and for cosmetic or cultural reasons rather than medical necessity seems like a good one.

You could've just said "circumcision". :lol:

Nonetheless, it is a forced and irreversible cosmetic change that is indisputably injurious to the body. You can jump through as many hoops as you want, but that won't change.
You're the only one jumping through hoops here. Stick with 'disfigurement' or 'mutilation', those terms at least have implied physical reference points, the most they can be accused of is being hyperbolic, as opposed to this tortuous definition of harm you're working with.

There's nothing torturous about describing the removal of a healthy body part without consent as injurious, it's about as accurate use of the word as you can get.

Here';s the Oxford English definition:

causing or likely to cause damage or harm
I'm sorry words and their meanings are so hard for you to grasp. A penis is supposed to look like x, you remove a part of it, it now looks like y. Therefore you have damaged it, that is indisputable. You may not have damaged the person's life, you may not have altered the penis' function, you may not have damaged the person further than the cosmetic harm done to how the penis is supposed to look, but damaged the penis, you most certainly have. Apparently some people don't think that is a decision that should be made for people by others, crazy huh?

I love the cognitive dissonance this topic causes, such a good chuckle :lol:
 
For those that say there is no medical benefit to circumcision:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/24/health/policy/24circumcision.html


Circumcision is believed to protect men from infection with H.I.V. because the mucosal tissue of the foreskin is more susceptible to H.I.V. and can be an entry portal for the virus. Observational studies have found that uncircumcised men have higher rates of other sexually transmitted diseases like herpes and syphilis, and a recent study in Baltimore found that heterosexual men were less likely to have become infected with H.I.V. from infected partners if they were circumcised.
 
A penis is supposed to look like x, you remove a part of it, it now looks like y. Therefore you have damaged it, that is indisputable.

Do you think *shaving* constitutes damage?

Oh jeez, is it really that hard to discern between dead cells that can be removed with no lasting effect and that grow back, and removing an integral body part? Will people please stop doing cartwheels to come up with these banal comparisons? :lol:

Why don't you tell me why cutting off part of the penis does not constitute causing it damage? Not damage to a persons life, not damage to a person's sexual function, but cosmetic damage to a healthy intact penis?
 
This discussion has happened here before. Echoing roughly what I said then: It happens in the US because it's the norm. Norm being synonymous with tradition.

I'm wondering what are the psychological effects of this operation are...

Do you strongly associate it with being an American male?

If so, then might it subconsciously strengthen your national identity?. ie, it helps you to feel American?

If so, might it strengthen feelings of patriotism?
 
Forget the political nonsense, circumcision is what really separates Best Korea from Worst Korea.

I love the cognitive dissonance this topic causes, such a good chuckle :lol:

This coming from someone who straight-facedly talks about 'harm' without any negative consequences. :lol:
 
I'm probably wrong. I just speculating. :)

See, what I'm wondering is if the circumcision has become a mark of one's national identity. Not in black and white terms, but through feelings of expectation and normality. Social pressures to conform, if you will.

A social pressure which might be reinforced by the feelings of togetherness that patriotism brings. And which in return, may reinforce those feelings of patriotism by knowing that you're branded with the mark of your national identity.
 
I'm wondering what are the psychological effects of this operation are...

I can't see any particular evidence to suggest there is a detrimental psychological effect, as you say, it's considered perfectly normal.
 
I'm probably wrong. I just speculating. :)

See, what I'm wondering is if the circumcision has become a mark of one's national identity. Not in black and white terms, but through feelings of expectation and normality. Social pressures to conform, if you will.

A social pressure which might be reinforced by the feelings of togetherness that patriotism brings. And which in return, may reinforce those feelings of patriotism by knowing that you're branded with the mark of your national identity.

Eh, I'm about as anti-nationalist as it gets and I just can't muster up the give-a-fuck to mourn for my lost foreskin. :lol:
 
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