Let's cut bits off of babies, yes?

[Avechbobo]

@FlyingLemons

Here's the thing: you're trying to dictate how one section of society should raise their children from the standpoint that your values and practices are inherently superior to theirs. They aren't. They're just different.

Yes, and guess what? Every law is based on one group's opinion. Abortion rights, freedom of religion, child protection acts? All due to some people forcing their values upon others. No argument there.

Being Jewish isn't just religion, but it's also a culture and a national identity. Circumcision is part of that identity, and it's highly siginificant for Jews whether they're atheist, agnostic, Reform, Conservative or Orthodox. We have our culture, others have theirs. It's not the business of others to tell us how to raise our children.

Again, laws do set borders on how far your culture can interfere with your children's lives. Yes, to some extent, it is their business. Bodily harm in my opinion is one. Why else are there child protection services stepping in if a parent beats the child until its green in its face? After all, a small beating doesn't permanently damage ones body, right? Strange ...

Modern surgerical techniques remove most of the stress, and I remember being at school and knowing an uncut guy who hated the fact that his parents hadn't had it done, and hugely resented them for it.

1. The fact that surgery is performed is stress to any person, whether you accept that or not.
2. Kids feeling ashamed or less of themselves for not being circumcised are the results of religious brainwashing. In fact, many catholics wish there is a malevolent god that hates us. Because they're conditioned to like the idea.

I've never called being uncut "ugly"

I didn't say it was you.

Also, throughout this whole thing you appear to be saying that you know better than me if I have a good sex life or not. I do, so "damaged" really doesn't stand up.

That's not what I'm saying. I said that a satisfying sex life is not equal to having the potentially full experience.

I don't really have the nerves to quote and debunk the rest. Beating your kid has once been normal, torture has for a long time been legal, and it all doesn't matter. Because morality changes and law does so, too. The fact that you're identifying with this whole jewish thing doesn't matter. If christians would really identify with the bible, do you think we'd have anti-discrimination laws, and that abortion would be legal and slavery forbidden? Again, it doesn't matter if religion or worldview or bigger culture. I say it's damn sick and it's to be prohibited. And again, yes, law is indeed based on opinion. Some psychopaths may view murder as perfectly moral and would legalize it for their own benefit. Ask the BTK killer.

EDIT:
@iguana_tonante

But, taking into account medical problems that could rise due to the presence of foreskin (phimosis, infections), I would say it's probably even.

Which would probably as well be the case with preventive appendectomies. Do we perform them on children? No. Logic suggests that you intervene once something stops working normally. Do you pull wisdom teeth out of a 10-year-old?

 

[iguana_tonante]

@iguana_tonante

But, taking into account medical problems that could rise due to the presence of foreskin (phimosis, infections), I would say it's probably even.

Which would probably as well be the case with preventive appendectomies. Do we perform them on children? No. Logic suggests that you intervene once something stops working normally.

I would agree with you if that was done only for medical reasons, which are by all accounts insufficient to allow the practice. But as I've said, people have other reasons for doing it. Reasons I disagree with, but I don't dismiss them out of hand.

 

[Avechbobo]

Well I do dismiss them, since "cultural identification", "religious reason" and "tradition" are invalid. By the logic you use to justify circumcision on minors because "you're jewish", you could justify sharia law, slavery, prosecution of minorities and the disposal of every freedom you can think of. You could brainwash your kids even more than today, because "my religion/culture" says so. My "culture" is christian, I'm not. And if it were truly christian and would've never changed, we wouldn't have freedom of/from religion.

 

[FlyingLemons]

Yes, and guess what? Every law is based on one group's opinion. Abortion rights, freedom of religion, child protection acts? All due to some people forcing their values upon others. No argument there.

That's because the majority of society agrees with those things, and especially the last one - freedom of religion. Circumcision is a fundamental part of Judaism and Islam, and thus we should be free to do it. In the UK it's not done with public money at birth, and is largely considered a private matter for the family as it should be. Also, the opinion of a lot of medical doctors is that it isn't inherently detrimental to the individual. Thus there isn't much reason for government to ban it.

Again, laws do set borders on how far your culture can interfere with your children's lives. Yes, to some extent, it is their business. Bodily harm in my opinion is one. Why else are there child protection services stepping in if a parent beats the child until its green in its face? After all, a small beating doesn't permanently damage ones body, right? Strange ...

Circumcision doesn't kill a child though, and it certainly never bothered me as a kid. On the other hand, if parents beat their child enough for CPS to step in, chances are they're highly at risk.

1. The fact that surgery is performed is stress to any person, whether you accept that or not.

That's why you have pain relief.

2. Kids feeling ashamed or less of themselves for not being circumcised are the results of religious brainwashing. In fact, many catholics wish there is a malevolent god that hates us. Because they're conditioned to like the idea.

Being Jewish is a matter of culture and not faith. It's culturally normal for us, and society respects that as it should.

That's not what I'm saying. I said that a satisfying sex life is not equal to having the potentially full experience.

Here's what matters: do you enjoy your sex life? Yes? Good. That's it. "Potential full experience" etc is subjective, as there are uncut people who are rubbish in bed and don't fulfil the "potential full experience" and cut people who are great in bed and satisfy them and their partner.

I don't really have the nerves to quote and debunk the rest. Beating your kid has once been normal, torture has for a long time been legal, and it all doesn't matter. Because morality changes and law does so, too.

Beating your kid and torture leads to serious psychological and physical scars. Circumcision if carried out by a professional doesn't. There are cases where it has been carried out by unqualified people which have lead to harm, and it's been punished. When it's carried out by a trained surgeon, it doesn't lead to harm. I know, for instance, that I turned out perfectly fine and so do many others. Thus there's not much reason to ban it.

The fact that you're identifying with this whole jewish thing doesn't matter. If christians would really identify with the bible, do you think we'd have anti-discrimination laws, and that abortion would be legal and slavery forbidden? Again, it doesn't matter if religion or worldview or bigger culture.

Actually, yes. Some of the slavery abolitionists were motivated by their Christian beliefs, and Jews have been passionate advocates for abortion rights based on the fact that the Bible doesn't actually regard it as murder from the Jewish perspective. And the fact that I identify Jewishly is quite important, unless you seek to ban people from living according to their culture because you're squeemish about one part of it.

I say it's damn sick and it's to be prohibited.

And an awful lot of people more experienced and more informed than you don't. So we'll leave things just the way they are. If in Israel, for example, we decided to mandate circumcision for all non-Jewish children, I'd think that was stupid too. Leaving it to the family as is done at the moment works just fine.

And again, yes, law is indeed based on opinion. Some psychopaths may view murder as perfectly moral and would legalize it for their own benefit. Ask the BTK killer.

If we legalized murder, it would lead to a lot of people being seriously harmed and killed. That's why it's banned. If, however, someone decided to assess me for serious psychological and physical injury based on the fact that I was circumcised, good luck with that. They wouldn't find anything. That's really why the above is no good as an analogy.

Well I do dismiss them, since "cultural identification", "religious reason" and "tradition" are invalid. By the logic you use to justify circumcision on minors because "you're jewish", you could justify sharia law, slavery, prosecution of minorities and the disposal of every freedom you can think of. You could brainwash your kids even more than today, because "my religion/culture" says so. My "culture" is christian, I'm not. And if it were truly christian and would've never changed, we wouldn't have freedom of/from religion.

Basic point: Christianity and Islam are based on belief, and you can't be an "atheist Christian" or an "atheist Muslim" as other members of the faith will not accept you as such. With Judaism, it's wound up with the national identity of the Jewish people, and so you can be an atheist but others will accept you as Jewish even if you don't share their religious faith. Also, given we're not missionizing under UK law we're covered by racial discrimination laws along with Hindus as a minority, and indeed by most Western democracies.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Well I do dismiss them, since "cultural identification", "religious reason" and "tradition" are invalid. By the logic you use to justify circumcision on minors because "you're jewish", you could justify sharia law, slavery, prosecution of minorities and the disposal of every freedom you can think of.

No, because slavery and persecutions are horrible crimes that harm people, destroy lives, and lessen us all as human beings. Circumcision, on the other hand, is at best a minor infringement, and while I don't agree with it, it's not life destroying and should not treated as such. Really, there is no sin in allowing degrees in seriousness of harm. You are doing your argument no favour using this kind of hyperbole.

Now, of all thing, I would never though I would defend circumcision.

 

[Deckerd]

Without hyperbole, this board would be full of tumbleweed.

 

[Amaris]

Without hyperbole, this board would be full of tumbleweed.

Tumbleweed that would most certainly bring about the fall of civilization as we know it.

 

[Avechbobo]

@FlyingLemons and iguana
You don't really get it. When I compare something to slavery, I don't mean it's equally bad. I say you can use your religion or culture the same way to justify it as you do with circumcision, meaning your reason is invalid.

Also, no Lemons, if you yourself practice your religion or ideology or cult or lifestyle, I'm absolutely fine with it. When it starts involving your children, I'm starting to have a problem. If you're 18+ and want to amputate both your arms, theoretically, because yahweh, god or allah said so, go on. Just pay for it yourself.

 

[FlyingLemons]

@FlyingLemons and iguana
You don't really get it. When I compare something to slavery, I don't mean it's equally bad. I say you can use your religion or culture the same way to justify it as you do with circumcision, meaning your reason is invalid.

Slavery has destroyed many lives. Circumcision hasn't. Being a slave would have seriously harmed me, circumcision hasn't. Slavery cannot be justified for the harm it causes (thus Jews don't accept it), circumcision doesn't cause serious harm so we can justify it. I've never spoken with another Jew who does reckon he's been harmed by circumcision either.

Also, no Lemons, if you yourself practice your religion or ideology or cult or lifestyle, I'm absolutely fine with it.

That's nice to know.

When it starts involving your children, I'm starting to have a problem.

I'm not going to tell you how to raise your kids, and there's not an ounce of reason you can tell me or anyone else how to raise theirs. As circumcision hasn't harmed me, my father, my brother, the people at my synagogue and indeed millions of men worldwide, I don't think there's much of a reason you can give to ban it besides "I personally think it's wrong". Banning untrained individuals from doing it, yes. That's caused a lot of harm. Banning the practice overall: no.

If you're 18+ and want to amputate both your arms, theoretically, because yahweh, god or allah said so, go on. Just pay for it yourself.

I paid for my son's bris myself, and no public money was taken up by that. Actually, my son's living quite a happy life too, so that's another person who's perfectly fine with his circumcision.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Well I do dismiss them, since "cultural identification", "religious reason" and "tradition" are invalid.

Well, congratulations, you've just invalidated nearly 100% of all human culture. We might as well commit mass suicide now.

 

[FlyingLemons]

Indeed. In fact, let's abolish the tradition of clothes, shall we? Sometimes I just can't be bothered to get dressed and so I'd love to be able to roam the streets in my birthday suit unchallenged by the police.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Indeed. In fact, let's abolish the tradition of clothes, shall we? Sometimes I just can't be bothered to get dressed and so I'd love to be able to roam the streets in my birthday suit unchallenged by the police.

And fuck all this "language" nonsense. From here on out I'm going to communicate by arranging patterns of my own spittle on the sidewalk.

 

[FlyingLemons]

Yes. Tradition and culture are all nonsense, so we should just get rid of everything. That'll teach 'em.

 

[Avechbobo]

This isn't really getting anywhere, let's just let it be. We won't ever agree on this issue and thus are only wasting calories and oxygen. I can't understand why imposing your culture on minors is justifiable when they have to live with it for the rest of their lives and by saying "because they're jewish", you treat it as some kind of unchangeable, forever lasting desire "to be jewish". You treat it as if you have the right to order your child to identify with something he doesn't need to want to identify with and you're doing it by removing part of his body. I call that sick.

=<18 years vs. 50=< years. And you just assume it's morally correct to use the right you sadly have to declare "he's jewish", as if it's a cosmic constant or something. I wish you'd only have daughters.

EDIT: @Robert Maxwell
What's it with the culture argument, now? Of course language, clothing and behaviour/music/art/fests are cultural, that's irrelevant. What I meant by that is that if something is harming someone, which in my opinion it is, culture is no excuse. Why don't people just get it?

 

[FlyingLemons]

I can't understand why imposing your culture on minors is justifiable when they have to live with it for the rest of their lives and by saying "because they're jewish", you treat it as some kind of unchangeable, forever lasting desire "to be jewish".

The UK celebrates Christian festivals, so I've had Christian culture "imposed" on me. I don't mind really. I also grew up Jewish, and I'm proud and grateful that I was born Jewish.

You treat it as if you have the right to order your child to identify with something he doesn't need to want to identify with and you're doing it by removing part of his body. I call that sick.

My son is part of a Jewish family, his relatives are Jews and a lot of his friends are Jews. For us, circumcision is normal, for you, it's "sick". We don't have to please you though.

=<18 years vs. 50=< years. And you just assume it's morally correct to use the right you sadly have to declare "he's jewish", as if it's a cosmic constant or something. I wish you'd only have daughters.

Well, according to much of Western and Jewish philosophy, yes it is morally correct to assert that my son is culturally Jewish being born to Jews. And honestly, I think I'm in a better place to decide how to raise my son than the likes of you.

What's it with the culture argument, now? Of course language, clothing and behaviour/music/art/fests are cultural, that's irrelevant. What I meant by that is that if something is harming someone, which in my opinion it is, culture is no excuse. Why don't people just get it?

In your opinion, yes, in the opinion of many others, no. You're not in an inherently better position to advocate dictating anything to say, me, or anyone else. Medically, most mainstream doctors find there's no inherent harm otherwise they wouldn't do it (mohels included). Culturally, people are allowed to be different, and as circumcision done right by a medical professional isn't inherently harmful, there's nothing bad happening.

If you're going to argue against bits of others' cultural tradition you don't like, I might as well say clothes as I could argue it's causing me serious psychological harm being forced to wear clothes against my will. The definition of "harm" can be twisted into all manner of guises.

 

[RoJoHen]

Why don't people just get it?

We get it. It's such an odd topic, though.

Uncircumcised people think it's bad because you're making a permanent decision for a baby by performing surgery on it.

Circumcised people don't think it's a big deal because, even though it's been done to them, they don't remember it, and it hasn't caused them any harm in their lives.

As a circumcised man, I understand both arguments. I definitely get how it can seem wrong, but I also know from experience that I don't care. I mean, I didn't even know I had a circumcised penis until I learned about circumcision in Sex Ed.

Well, according to much of Western and Jewish philosophy, yes it is morally correct to assert that my son is culturally Jewish being born to Jews. And honestly, I think I'm in a better place to decide how to raise my son than the likes of you.

Indeed. Somebody has to impose values on children. We can say all we want that people need to make their own decisions, but until they are mature enough to do so, somebody needs to make decisions for them. Parents are going to instill their own beliefs on their children, and that's only fair. You can't make a law that says, "You're Jewish, but you can't instill Jewish beliefs on your son until he's 18." It doesn't work that way.

 

[Avechbobo]

The UK celebrates Christian festivals, so I've had Christian culture "imposed" on me.

If I had a say, countries themselves wouldn't celebrate anything. I pretty much am in agreement with the US constitution on this.

yes it is morally correct to assert that my son is culturally Jewish being born to Jews.

But don't you at least understand my point? I'm heavily opposed to christians and muslims raising their kids religiously. But that doesn't need to get stuck in their heads and they become atheist or buddhist or jewish later on. With removing body parts, you don't have that. You're, as I said, branded for eternity.
Also, I agree with Dawkins in that nobody should say they're child is something because its parents are. Have you ever heard of a liberal, a fascist or a democratic child?

And honestly, I think I'm in a better place to decide how to raise my son than the likes of you.

Again, don't think I just want to play around with how you raise your kids. My concern is from the point of view that circumcision harms boys. Don't you think it's a bit extreme to pretend I want to take away your parental liberties by outlawing something like circumcision? You still can/have to socialise your children, care about their education, and can still spend time with them. It's similar to parents complaining because of child protection laws. Again, I'm not comparing violence in upbringing directly to circumcision, I mean to imply that parents overreact if politics address any issue on parenting.

 

[Deckerd]

You can't make a law that says, "You're Jewish, but you can't instill Jewish beliefs on your son until he's 18." It doesn't work that way.

In my opinion that's how it should always be. In my perfect world, nobody would indoctrinate any religion into a child. Religion would be something only adults could participate in, like many other activities.

 

[FlyingLemons]

We all try and raise our children in a way that's appropriate to their health and wellbeing, and at least for people who live in a Jewish cultural context, circumcision is part of that. And although culturally significant, physically to the human body it's not that special, and Avechbobo has yet to demonstrate how it's substantially taken away from my quality of life in order to get me to understand why apparently circumcision is so abominable. If it had taken away from my quality of life substantially, yes. Given that sex works just fine (excellently for me!) without a foreskin, though, that's nigh on impossible.

 

[Avechbobo]

In a simple sentence, it's about a child's right to bodily integrity. And I value this highly above the parents' rights to religious influence. If you can't understand this concept, I can't help you.