Which raises another interesting point. V'Ger gets to Earth, doesn't get an answer from "the creator," and decides to barbecue the inhabitants because it thinks they're the problem. Once the carbon units are all gone, the planet goes completely silent and still no answer from the creator. What does V'Ger do then?
Let's be real, could Captain Decker have pulled it off?
- Thread starter Parallaxis
- Start date
Get out out there before the Whale Probe shows up.
Seems like V'Ger wanted to merge with the creator from the beginning. So I assume it would have just digitized the entire planet and hope to get the creator in there somewhere. It's anyone's guess what it would do once it reached its destination and had no where else to go? Sit and wait? Attempt to store the entire galaxy? Who knows?
The thing I find unrealistic is the idea that Starfleet would give command of the Enteprise to someone that green. True, the whole "this is the super-important flagship of the Federation" trope hadn't yet been established, but even TOS talked about how big and important starships are and how being the commander of one is a big deal. Seems an odd posting for an apparent command rookie.
Decker was supervising the refit, and the refit starship was launched prematurely. I don't believe that there's anything we're shown on screen that would tell us whether Decker would have captained the new starship beyond her shakedown cruise. The conflict we see is between the egos of Decker and Kirk, where the argument that Decker has against Kirk is essentially that Kirk cannot qualify in time regarding the capabilities of the ship that are new and different from what they were in the version of the ship that Kirk had captained.
I'll also add that Kirk arguably was performing at least part of his function in Starfleet by replacing Decker. The self-gratifying aspect of replacing Decker with himself was how it got problematic. What would have made it seem less selfish would have been a line or two about there being no one who could get there in time who was more qualified than Kirk to make first contact with aliens posing an existential threat to humanity. This is precisely the sort of thing that could have been said in the conversation between Kirk and Admiral Nogura.
I'll also add that Kirk arguably was performing at least part of his function in Starfleet by replacing Decker. The self-gratifying aspect of replacing Decker with himself was how it got problematic. What would have made it seem less selfish would have been a line or two about there being no one who could get there in time who was more qualified than Kirk to make first contact with aliens posing an existential threat to humanity. This is precisely the sort of thing that could have been said in the conversation between Kirk and Admiral Nogura.
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I seem to remember that the novelization made it clear that Kirk requested personal command from Nogura because Kirk wanted command back. I haven't read the novel in a few years so I could be misremembering.
I don't doubt that. I haven't read the novel, but my understanding is that there are numerous differences between the film and the novel.
McCoy said it in the film. Kirk wanted to command again and the Vger emergency gave him the opportunity.
Whats missing in the film is the backstory given in the novel of Nogura maneuvering Kirk into accepting promotion whereas otherwise Kirk could have continued in a ship command.
Whats missing in the film is the backstory given in the novel of Nogura maneuvering Kirk into accepting promotion whereas otherwise Kirk could have continued in a ship command.
I don't remember that many differences between the novel and the movie, as such, more just that the novel contained a lot of expanded exposition and backstory.
As far as I understand, the concept of New Humans is noncanonical. Just because something is fleshed out by the novel, that doesn't mean it's part of canon, in canonical continuity, or compatible with it.
Obviously, with my use of the words "would have" in the conditional mood, I was proposing an alternative sequence of events. Whether they would have conflicted with the novel is irrelevant. Human behavior can also be simultaneously motivated by more than one factor. Kirk could both be selfish and be ethically responsible at the same time, so even McCoy's line could stand.
Lest we get sidetracked, my point is that it's not unreasonable—even in the context of the movie as it exists—to interpret Kirk's seizing command of the Enterprise as being enabled opportunistically by his recognition that Decker is not up to the task of commanding the starship under such emergency conditions.
From the TMP novelization
CHAPTER THREE
“Jim, there is one starship that might be. . . positioned in time to pull off an interception.”
Kirk understood completely. But he kept his expression blank. Your next words could brand you a whore, Lori. Nogura’s staff whore. I hope I’m wrong.
“The Enterprise, Jim. There’s a chance they can get her out of orbital dockyards in time.”
“And?” Whatever Nogura had sent her here to say, he wasn’t going to help her with it.
“The commanding Admiral. . .”
“Meaning Nogura, of course. . .”
“Of course. He’s ordered everyone available from your old crew aboard. That will give Captain Decker the best. . .”
“Captain Decker?”
“Yes. You recommended they give the Enterprise to him, didn’t you? He’ll have the top crew in Starfleet, people already accustomed to working together. . .”
“And Nogura was worried I might want to take her out myself?”
“Well. . . no. Certainly, you’ll agree that the Enterprise has been so completely rebuilt and refitted that she’s not the same ship that you were so familiar with. Your protégé. . .”
“Decker.”
“Yes. He’s been aboard eighteen months now; he’s familiar with every change. . .”
“He knows the design changes, her new systems, like no one else in the Fleet could possibly know them.”
“That’s right, Jim.”
“Thank you, Lori. Mind if I close this console now? I’ve an appointment and I’m already running late for it.”
CHAPTER FOUR - The discussion between Nogura and Kirk reprinted in its entirety
“This must be rather difficult for you,” said Nogura. “Captain Decker has been something of your protégé, hasn’t he?”
“Yes, sir, but I don’t see how that makes it difficult. I’ve recommended him for jobs in the past because he was the best man available. In this case, he is not.”
Kirk knew himself to be motivated and determined as he had not been for years – and he had powerful arguments to use. The last five years of Enterprise logs supported his contention that Nogura’s greatest need was not a Captain familiar with a rebuilt vessel, but rather one with the greatest possible experience in dealing with deep-space unknowns, such as the one now hurtling toward Earth.
At first Nogura had seemed indifferent and impatient – but Kirk had seen the Commanding Admiral was also troubled and tired. Logs aside, was today’s Kirk a better Captain than the alert and upcoming young Decker? How much had Kirk been damaged by almost three years on the ground in an unfamiliar and unhappy environment? Ordinarily, Kirk would never have risked this direct a confrontation with the Commanding Admiral. But this was the first real challenge Kirk had faced in these past three years and Nogura, however dynamic and fearsome his personality, was also the man who manipulated him, used him. This was a battle Kirk was determined to win.
Kirk could see that Nogura was beginning to question the decision to use Decker, being unusually patient, incredibly so considering his reputation. It was becoming obvious that he must feel genuine regret over the way he had forced Kirk into flag rank.
Kirk had been with Nogura for twelve minutes. He had never known a visitor or a decision here to last that long. Then, he felt a chill as Nogura came abruptly to his feet.
“The entire staff considered this at length, Jim,” said Nogura. “I’m afraid every point you’ve made has already been carefully considered.”
“Admiral, these points were neither carefully nor properly considered since I was not present.” Kirk knew that his only chance now was to challenge Norgura directly. “And now that I am present, I submit that it is your responsibility to inform me of whatever negative arguments were made against my selection.”
As a flag officer and a member of Nogura’s staff, Kirk had both the right and an obligation to know of anything in his professional performance which his peers considered to be substandard.
Nogura’s eyes remained fixed on Kirk’s as five seconds passed, then ten. . . twenty. . . Kirk fought to keep the slightest expression off his own face. He sensed everything would be won or lost now in the next minute.
“How badly do you want her back?”
“The Enterprise? I can’t deny it’ll be pleasant to be back aboard her. . .”
“Jim, I am placing you on your honor. If there is the slightest chance that you are being motivated by anything other than professional considerations of intercepting whatever this is, trying to identify it, making contact with any lifeforms involved. . .”
“I don’t understand the reference to honor, Heihachiro. I don’t recall ever lying to you in the past – and I’m certain you never have to me.”
Kirk knew that he had won. He also believed that everything he had said or left unsaid was the whole and complete truth.
END CHAPTER
CHAPTER THREE
“Jim, there is one starship that might be. . . positioned in time to pull off an interception.”
Kirk understood completely. But he kept his expression blank. Your next words could brand you a whore, Lori. Nogura’s staff whore. I hope I’m wrong.
“The Enterprise, Jim. There’s a chance they can get her out of orbital dockyards in time.”
“And?” Whatever Nogura had sent her here to say, he wasn’t going to help her with it.
“The commanding Admiral. . .”
“Meaning Nogura, of course. . .”
“Of course. He’s ordered everyone available from your old crew aboard. That will give Captain Decker the best. . .”
“Captain Decker?”
“Yes. You recommended they give the Enterprise to him, didn’t you? He’ll have the top crew in Starfleet, people already accustomed to working together. . .”
“And Nogura was worried I might want to take her out myself?”
“Well. . . no. Certainly, you’ll agree that the Enterprise has been so completely rebuilt and refitted that she’s not the same ship that you were so familiar with. Your protégé. . .”
“Decker.”
“Yes. He’s been aboard eighteen months now; he’s familiar with every change. . .”
“He knows the design changes, her new systems, like no one else in the Fleet could possibly know them.”
“That’s right, Jim.”
“Thank you, Lori. Mind if I close this console now? I’ve an appointment and I’m already running late for it.”
CHAPTER FOUR - The discussion between Nogura and Kirk reprinted in its entirety
“This must be rather difficult for you,” said Nogura. “Captain Decker has been something of your protégé, hasn’t he?”
“Yes, sir, but I don’t see how that makes it difficult. I’ve recommended him for jobs in the past because he was the best man available. In this case, he is not.”
Kirk knew himself to be motivated and determined as he had not been for years – and he had powerful arguments to use. The last five years of Enterprise logs supported his contention that Nogura’s greatest need was not a Captain familiar with a rebuilt vessel, but rather one with the greatest possible experience in dealing with deep-space unknowns, such as the one now hurtling toward Earth.
At first Nogura had seemed indifferent and impatient – but Kirk had seen the Commanding Admiral was also troubled and tired. Logs aside, was today’s Kirk a better Captain than the alert and upcoming young Decker? How much had Kirk been damaged by almost three years on the ground in an unfamiliar and unhappy environment? Ordinarily, Kirk would never have risked this direct a confrontation with the Commanding Admiral. But this was the first real challenge Kirk had faced in these past three years and Nogura, however dynamic and fearsome his personality, was also the man who manipulated him, used him. This was a battle Kirk was determined to win.
Kirk could see that Nogura was beginning to question the decision to use Decker, being unusually patient, incredibly so considering his reputation. It was becoming obvious that he must feel genuine regret over the way he had forced Kirk into flag rank.
Kirk had been with Nogura for twelve minutes. He had never known a visitor or a decision here to last that long. Then, he felt a chill as Nogura came abruptly to his feet.
“The entire staff considered this at length, Jim,” said Nogura. “I’m afraid every point you’ve made has already been carefully considered.”
“Admiral, these points were neither carefully nor properly considered since I was not present.” Kirk knew that his only chance now was to challenge Norgura directly. “And now that I am present, I submit that it is your responsibility to inform me of whatever negative arguments were made against my selection.”
As a flag officer and a member of Nogura’s staff, Kirk had both the right and an obligation to know of anything in his professional performance which his peers considered to be substandard.
Nogura’s eyes remained fixed on Kirk’s as five seconds passed, then ten. . . twenty. . . Kirk fought to keep the slightest expression off his own face. He sensed everything would be won or lost now in the next minute.
“How badly do you want her back?”
“The Enterprise? I can’t deny it’ll be pleasant to be back aboard her. . .”
“Jim, I am placing you on your honor. If there is the slightest chance that you are being motivated by anything other than professional considerations of intercepting whatever this is, trying to identify it, making contact with any lifeforms involved. . .”
“I don’t understand the reference to honor, Heihachiro. I don’t recall ever lying to you in the past – and I’m certain you never have to me.”
Kirk knew that he had won. He also believed that everything he had said or left unsaid was the whole and complete truth.
END CHAPTER
Thanks, @DarrenTR1970, that was awesome! With Nogura's "on your honor" line, that's quite close to what I was proposing.
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