Lessons to be learned from the Kelvin Universe Films

[Khan 2.0]

I think the issue with Orci's script was just Shatner and the use of time travel. Those were elements the studio didn't like, not the stuff from that quote.
Regardless what Pegg and Lin claim, there were similarities between that story and beyond that probably was the cheaper version of what trek 3 originally was supposed to be.
I'm not saying Pegg and Jung plagiarized anything or they didn't have ideas. I can believe them that they didn't read Orci's script, but the producers did and told them to put X, y and Z in the movie, IMO. Even gay Sulu was something JJ himself had wanted to imply back in stid, yet Pegg kind of tried to get kudos for being innovative as if he was the first to even think about having non-straight characters when JJ had previoustly stated they had an idea for one and Orci confirmed it was Sulu in his movie too.

When the first trailer came out, Orci&co still got a credit, much to Lin's annoyance. Why?
Once you write a script for a studio, they own it and can use it.
Writers, for better or worse, get all the blame or praise but you gotta ask yourself how much of a script really is the story they want to tell and how much it's the studio and producers demanding them to write a script around their ideas.
I think jj&co probably had more real creative freedom only when they made the first movie. From stid onwards, including lin&Co, I have my doubts they were truly free to tell all the stories they wanted.

Based on those ST3 tweets orci did couple years back - think the device that krall was after in Beyond (that did what again? idk) was the time travel device in Orci's ST3 (similar to the ones in Prince of Persia and Tomb Raider1?) Krall and Co will have been the 'Annunaki' (with same makeups as Beyond? and the swarm too?) who are like ancient aliens seeking to restore the timeline? (thus wiping out kelvinverse) and maybe it'd have played out something like The Chase where everyones after the device (probably Klingons & Romulans too).. Kirk & Spock get roped into it all and are tempted when they realise they can change the past (Spocks mother/Vulcan, Kirks father)- but ultimately decide against it (so it becomes like a battle to save the Alt timeline? - the opposite of stuff like YesterdaysEnt). Shatner Kirk 'Prime' must've been brought back by the device somehow (by Nimoy Spock to help K&S?) and maybe it would've ended with Shat Kirk having to sacrifice himself to protect the timelines? (but in a more meaningful epic way than Generations)

and then of course elements of that mustve been rewritten into the ST4 with Hemsworth instead of Shatner

 

[Khan 2.0]

Orci on his ST3 in the comments of latest TM.com ST4/Hemsworth article:

Viking: Bob, how does that explain that he didn’t think the script was up to snuff if he didn’t read it? Was Hemsworth supposed to be in JJ Trek: III, and that’s what he was referring to? I am befuzzled. My default state of mind, these days.

boborci: Catch up. Hemsworth has nothing to do with Trek 3. Not in the draft I wrote. The article refers to whatever he read about Trek 4. Catch Up!

Josiah Rowe : To be clear: the studio rejected the script that Orci, Payne and McKay wrote for Star Trek 3. (I don’t think George Kirk was in that one, but I’m not certain.) Or, more accurately, the studio decided not to let Orci direct that film, and gave the director’s chair to Justin Lin with the freedom to use or reject the Orci/Payne/McKay script; he chose to abandon it, and hired Simon Pegg and Doug Jung to write a completely new script. Payne and McKay then went on to write a script for Star Trek 4, without Orci. This is the script featuring George Kirk, and it’s this script that Hemsworth refers to in the interview. When Bob says “he didn’t read it,” he’s presumably referring to his Trek 3 script.

boborci: Correct. Paramount rejected our script. Too Treky.

Tiger2: Bob can you at least clear this up for us, but it sounds like elements of your Trek 3 script was going to be part of this movie. You worked with Payne and McKay for the third one, did they just take elements of what you guys made and add it the Hemsworth movie or did they just write a new script entirely?A lot of people assumed the former because it sounded like it was basically written (or at least outlined) before Beyond went into theaters. But if you don’t know anything (or can’t say) that’s clearly understandable.

boborci: No idea. Not a part of Trek anymore.

https://trekmovie.com/2019/05/28/ch...lews-WWUvate7FiRohxp5fvFQiiJHJ6Z9hotVzsKp0TfM

 

[Khan 2.0]

Interesting rise and fall (and rise?) of Trek article (94 onward)
https://screenrant.com/paramount-killed-star-trek-how/

 

[Smellmet]

Interesting rise and fall (and rise?) of Trek article (94 onward)
https://screenrant.com/paramount-killed-star-trek-how/

Nothing we didn't already know but an excellent article nonetheless.

 

[Malaika]

Orci on his ST3 in the comments of latest TM.com ST4/Hemsworth article:

Sounds like I was wrong in my assumption that trek 4 was the second story Orci had previoustly mentioned having, when the news broke that the first script was rejected. I guess they rejected both his stories, but those other guys still wrote a third one, possibly around what the studio demanded.

Whoa he said he didn't even watch beyond!
I think it didn't end well between him and the studio/other producers. I just hope he doesn't start to placate haters in his interviews, and retroactively criticize the first movies..such as blaming those aspects that are unpopular among trekmovie-trolls-alike on JJ and the others. After years he had defended the movies and argued with haters, he'd really show a severe lack of integrity by doing a 180° now just because he's out of trek.

I remember he was supporting beyond and made a comment about how sad it was trek fans weren't watching it.. I guess, now, that comment was sarcasm since he was among those who didn't watch it, lol

 

[Khan 2.0]

Sounds like I was wrong in my assumption that trek 4 was the second story Orci had previoustly mentioned having, when the news broke that the first script was rejected. I guess they rejected both his stories, but those other guys still wrote a third one, possibly around what the studio demanded.

Whoa he said he didn't even watch beyond!
I think it didn't end well between him and the studio/other producers. I just hope he doesn't start to placate haters in his interviews, and retroactively criticize the first movies..such as blaming those aspects that are unpopular among trekmovie-trolls-alike on JJ and the others. After years he had defended the movies and argued with haters, he'd really show a severe lack of integrity by doing a 180° now just because he's out of trek.

I remember he was supporting beyond and made a comment about how sad it was trek fans weren't watching it.. I guess, now, that comment was sarcasm since he was among those who didn't watch it, lol

for such a major trek fan him saying he hasn't even seen Beyond speaks volumes.. (he must be annoyed/gutted with how it all turned out ..and possibly how his ex writing partner is now in control of Trek)

 

[F. King Daniel]

There's a loooooooong history of people removed from projects saying they never saw the final product (Zach Snyder, for a recent example on Justice League).

I'm sure there's a meaty story around Orci's Trexit. I'm sure one day we'll learn it... but it could be a decade or more (see: Chaos on the Bridge)

 

[pst]

Whoa he said he didn't even watch beyond!

man do i have a hard time believing this when anyone says this. this is such a cool guy response we hear all the time. i don't believe anyone who says they don't watch their own movies/TV shows and i especially don't believe them when they say it after they've been shitcanned. sorry.

 

[flandry84]

I’m still bemused by the idea of a Star Trek script being dismissed as too Trek-y.Huh?
Did they want it a bit more Mission impossibly?Avenger-y?Jurassic park-y?

 

[Khan 2.0]

I’m still bemused by the idea of a Star Trek script being dismissed as too Trek-y.Huh?
Did they want it a bit more Mission impossibly?Avenger-y?Jurassic park-y?

they wanted it more Guardians-y - which they did - Kirks 'starlordy' fieldjacket, Jahlah/Gamora, Yorktown/Xandar, the Abrogate/the Orb(infinity stone), superherolike gravity stunts, the save Yorktown from krall finale (abit like the save Xandar from ronan finale), even the 2 forgien posters looked abit similar to the GOTG posters

 

[Lakenheath 72]

Lesson #5: Break up the formula. Make each film unique, let it be its own genre. We had three films in a row where revenge was the chief theme.

Lesson #6: Do not let a focus group decide the nature of a franchise. Do what is best for the franchise. Respect what came before.

 

[Khan 2.0]

the release of Dark Phoenix got me thinking back to how the Xmen reboot/prequel series mirrored JJTrek - the initial instalment heavily influenced by ST09 and just under the gross worldwide but domestic was way behind. 2nd added the timetravel element and although was just under STID domestic was bigger overseas than Trek could ever dream..3rd same summer and same domestic gross as STB but again much bigger overseas (maybe ST3 should've taken note of DOFP success and gone that route) .
So abit like how the rebooted XMen took lessons from ST09 - maybe Paramount will be taking note of how Dark Phoenix does.. and if its worth pushing ahead with a 4th/finale

 

[Smellmet]

the release of Dark Phoenix got me thinking back to how the Xmen reboot/prequel series mirrored JJTrek - started just after and was heavily influenced by ST09 (the initial instalment just under ST09s gross worldwide but domestic was way behind. 2nd added the timetravel element and although was just under STID domestic was bigger overseas than Trek could ever dream..3rd same domestic gross as STB but again much bigger overseas) . So maybe Paramount will be taking note of how Dark Phoenix does.. and if its worth pushing ahead with a 4th/finale

I think it's dead and buried personally.

 

[DonIago]

I'm hopeful that Dark Phoenix will be good, though I've been avoiding spoilers. It at least has to be better than Last Stand, right? Though maybe that's damning with faint praise?

 

[fireproof78]

Lesson #5: Break up the formula. Make each film unique, let it be its own genre. We had three films in a row where revenge was the chief theme.

Lesson #6: Do not let a focus group decide the nature of a franchise. Do what is best for the franchise. Respect what came before.

How does one respect what came before and break up the formula?

 

[Kor]

You can respect it without slavishly sticking to the same thing.

Kor

 

[fireproof78]

You can respect it without slavishly sticking to the same thing.

Kor

Oh, I know that. I am curious to how the other poster would interpret it. Since, when I see the desire to "change it up" it is often followed by cries of frustration for daring to change it.

 

[XCV330]

Just 10 years later it's becoming easy to remember that star trek was dead by 2009. Nothing was going on. There were scripts being suggested, TV ideas being promoted, but that's always the case. Abrams movies set the pace for what would come, and they were successful enough for CBS to think Discovery might work out. The Abrams films might be over but their heritage is 5 new series under Kurtzman and of course the possibility of the Tarantino film. If 2009 had flopped, there might be no Star Trek beyond the occasional rumor from development hell. Sure, someone would have brought it back yet again, eventually.

The main lesson learned was promote your damn movies. Beyond wasn't given the kind of promotion that it deserved.

(edit.. sorry.. meant easy to FORGET)

 

[Khan 2.0]

talking of Xmen comparrisons:

Like the Star Trek movie series, X-Men began its run near the top of the opening weekend charts only to eventually just become a god among gods. Star Trek: The Motion Picture broke the opening weekend record with $11 million in 1979 while Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan did it again in 1982 with $14.5 million. Inflation notwithstanding, a Star Trek movie wouldn’t open above $20 million until Star Trek: Generations in 1994 and above $30 million until Star Trek: First Contact in 1996. It would peak there (by a lot) before J.J. Abrams’ Star Trek rebooted the thing as a top-tier blockbuster franchise with a $79 million launch in 2009. That too would be a relative peak for the franchise, although Star Trek Into Darkness opened with $83 million over a Thurs-Sun debut four years later. X-Men and Star Trek have their similarities in terms of hardcore fanbases and their use of sci-fi/fantasy to explicitly dig into modern-day social issues. Moreover, they both found themselves lost in the woods when (respectively) Star Wars returned to theaters and the MCU and DC Films surpassed what the X-Men series could offer.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2019/06/07/box-office-x-men-dark-phoenix-earns-just-5-million-in-thursday-previews/#57f076af3c32

 

[StarTrek1701]

One of the biggest mistakes by Abrams and Co. was waiting four damn long years for a sequel. Unlike the days that are now, a decade ago studios didn't wait 4 years to release an iron-hot sequel.
Batman Begins / Dark Knight notwithstanding, every sequel in those times were fast tracked. Why was Abrams waiting, and in meantime, made that forgetful monster movie, nobody knows.
Into Darkness honestly felt rushed as in Abrams lost interest in the CBS/Paramount wrangling of rights, and the cast honestly seemed really uninterested, specially Pine.
If handled correctly we could have had a Star Trek franchise today rivaling Marvel. But you need a singular person with full command, like Feige is for Marvel.
All these other franchise starters like DCEU, Dark Universe, and now the Monsterverse fell flat on their faces because of too many damn cooks in the kitchen.
I really hope Kelvin Verse gets another go. But only three movies after 10 years, where Marvel has had 20(!!!) I truly have o high hopes for it.
And trust me when I say this, mark it down: Star Trek Picard is going to be an absolute disappointment like Last Jedi was for Star Wars.