• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Lessons to be learned from the Kelvin Universe Films

Status
Not open for further replies.
Stop trying to force Star Trek into being an all out action franchise.

Action should be the side dish, not the main course.

They've been trying to force action into Star Trek movies for 20+ years. It's resulted in some moderate success, but it's mostly produced mediocrity.
 
You are no doubt spot on with that, and add to that the fact that Beyound seemed almost invisible promotion wise over here in the UK, well to me anyway, i think i say a Yt trailer for the movie and that was it, i don't ever remember it being promoted in a big way, which was odd as it was also the 50th anni of Trek, which i might add also seemed to be not a big deal, was the 50th anni a big thing in the states?
I specifically waited to see the trailer on big screen before TFA as it was announced it'd show b4 only to find..wasn't there. So saw it on YouTube and was as bad/meh as everyone was saying star trek with bike stunts and hard rock music from the F&F director... then there was the proper trailer that was alot better. then there was that that spoiler TV spot just before it was released and was on my FB feed and couldn't switch it off b4 saw Elba as Edison/Krall lol.

US had the 50th ann thing at Paramount studios with JJ, Lin, Pine/ZQ/Urban where one of the stages was named after Nimoy and everyone there was given a TMP style poster of Beyond and JJ said the Axanar case thing was going away .. Also there was a sit down doc with 7of9, Kevin Pollock and few others.plus there were the usual anniversary magazines etc. the only thing of any note in UK seemed to be the Trek exhibition in Blackpool and an Empire magazine 50th supplement
 
I specifically waited to see the trailer on big screen before TFA as it was announced it'd show b4 only to find..wasn't there. So saw it on YouTube and was as bad/meh as everyone was saying star trek with bike stunts and hard rock music from the F&F director... then there was the proper trailer that was alot better. then there was that that spoiler TV spot just before it was released and was on my FB feed and couldn't switch it off b4 saw Elba as Edison/Krall lol.

US had the 50th ann thing at Paramount studios with JJ, Lin, Pine/ZQ/Urban where one of the stages was named after Nimoy and everyone there was given a TMP style poster of Beyond and JJ said the Axanar case thing was going away .. Also there was a sit down doc with 7of9, Kevin Pollock and few others.plus there were the usual anniversary magazines etc. the only thing of any note in UK seemed to be the Trek exhibition in Blackpool and an Empire magazine 50th supplement

Yeah that first trailer sucked hard. It's a shame because I thought the subsequent trailers were excellent.
 
aside from this hot take (linking is does not imply endorsement), the takeaway is don't mismanage your franchises, paramount. these were generally good movies released by an indifferent and/or incompetent studio.
Your link doesn't seem to work for me.

Kor
 
Yeah that first trailer sucked hard. It's a shame because I thought the subsequent trailers were excellent.
I agree with the embolden.

And contrary to popular belief most of the marketing for Beyond was pretty good IMO.

Problem is, the first impression general audiences get of a film is what sticks with them. The first trailer was: "Fast and the Furious!" "Beastie Boys!" "Trying to be like Guardians of the Galaxy" "Captain Kirk on a Motorcycle!"

A lot of people were turned off by that. And even though the second trailer was great the damage had already been done.

Had they done something as simple as reversing the order in which the first two trailers were released, I bet it would have made a significant difference.
 
If you are dead set on doing a reboot, then do a reboot and do not tie it in to the other material. Let there be two differing Trek universes that aren't connected by some contrived time travel incident. Just don't screw with what has already come to pass. Don't try to be clever, leave it the fuck alone.
 
I specifically waited to see the trailer on big screen before TFA as it was announced it'd show b4 only to find..wasn't there. So saw it on YouTube and was as bad/meh as everyone was saying star trek with bike stunts and hard rock music from the F&F director... then there was the proper trailer that was alot better. then there was that that spoiler TV spot just before it was released and was on my FB feed and couldn't switch it off b4 saw Elba as Edison/Krall lol.

US had the 50th ann thing at Paramount studios with JJ, Lin, Pine/ZQ/Urban where one of the stages was named after Nimoy and everyone there was given a TMP style poster of Beyond and JJ said the Axanar case thing was going away .. Also there was a sit down doc with 7of9, Kevin Pollock and few others.plus there were the usual anniversary magazines etc. the only thing of any note in UK seemed to be the Trek exhibition in Blackpool and an Empire magazine 50th supplement

Interesting, i was not aware of the Blackpool thing, but at least they did something for it in the country of its birth so that's good. :-)
 
I would have a clean cut reboot. No connections with Prime universe/Berman Trek. No weird and wandering multiuniverse or whatever was the backstory.

Stop shoveling in references, "Easter Eggs" and even entire scenes from 80s Trek in order to appease fans many of whom are only gonna get madder anyway whilst the broader masses don't really care.

Cadet to captain in a week did not carry favour with me. I don't want Kirk to be that good.

Move away from the one guy wantin' revenge/axe to grind thing which was there in all three of these films.

Personally, I would've made all the actors a bit older. And would've put their ages sometime between TOS and TMP.
 
I’m a good example of what went wrong with Beyond. It was the only JJ film I skipped in the theatres based entirely on the first trailer, which made the film look more rocked-up and actioned-up than ever. Now, I own it digitally and think it’s by far the best of the 3. One of my top 3 fav Trek films of the whole lot. Bet a lot of folks made the mistake I did and helped tank that bottom line when it counted- in the theatrical run.
 
Since it doesn't look like we are getting another Kelvin Universe movie for the foreseeable future, I thought it would be interesting to talk about lessons to learn from the Kelvin Universe movies. This franchise was popular at first, but lost steam over time and here is some things are worth looking at in that regard, I think these films did some things right but made some errors that cost them in the long run:

1. Strike while the iron is hot: There was a 4 year gap between Star Trek 09 and Into Darkness, which I think killed the momentum of the first film, next time the filmmakers should not let a gap like that happen again.

Momentum is part of it. STID had some very stupid moments (e.g. magic blood, hack rewrite of the character death and "KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!" which doesn't hold up to any narrative standard, never mind the magic blood because NuMcCoy was just being bored one day (on top of the pointless nostalgia throw-in of having the one NuTribble there for no reason except NuMcCoy)...

2. Better plan your franchise, I think there should have been an overall plan how this franchise would proceed and link the films in continuing story, these films seemed like random adventures rather than parts of a greater whole, while the original Star Trek movies from 2 to 4 had a story thread that continued throughout the series, elements of which were picked up in 6. Planning the franchise better would allow for tighter storytelling and give people more incentive to show up for the next film.

I somewhat disagree, not just because the makers of ST09 were not sure it would take off the way it had. It's also not like Star Wars' movies (the original 1977-83 run) had any tightly written plans, either... or wasn't made up as it went along. So it happens.

3. Do not over mine nostalgia: Here is the big problem with the second film, they brought in Khan too quickly and wanted to hit beats from Wrath of Khan so hard, they recreated an entire iconic scene from it. I do not mind a few callbacks or nods to other parts of the franchise, but that was overkill. They could have done anything, instead, they did the greatest hits version of Star Trek and brought back Khan. Into Darkness is my least favorite film of this series because of that.

Already mentioned that but callbacks are ubiquitous in every franchise nowadays regardless of while milestone number the movie isn't at. It was cute in "Die Another Day" for James Bond but not for every movie since, callbacks and nostalgia detract from the story and if there's a strong story then callbacks feel even more hackneyed as the movie then wants you to hawk as it screams "hey look at me, I'm a nod to the past, look at how cool I am!" The only thing more... inane, for lack of appropriate epithet... is self-aware shtick like in Dr Who where he puts on a fez and acts like a coked up toddler in saying they're cool!

Wait-- check that for anniversary movies, a few callbacks for their own sake are okay - it's all celebratory self-congratulatory fun, especially if the underlying script is better than a bag of callbacks. Callbacks and nostalgia are not easy to do regardless of form, not to mention weaving them into the story in a way that don't scream "TACKY!" to those who understand the reference, or to those who might not get the callback but would otherwise see the scene as relevant to story narrative flow. One GOOD example of a callback is in the 1979 Buck Rogers show when they got Buster Krabbe back. I never saw his Flash Gordon stuff and the references flew over my head at the time, he's just a renowned officer who's cool. People who knew the references liked the homage, which isn't overly done or hammering it over the heads of the audience with. Compare to a Doctor Who story from 1988 where there's a French revolution book is shown sitting on a desk in a science lab, which just screams "Tacky!" as it's early on in the story, which doesn't make use of the detail being given rather protracted time on screen. (Obviously they're callbacks to the original companions from 1963 and we're supposed to think the scene is clever by nodding at us so jarringly... which is a shame since the actual story is first rate, then comes the occasional callback that jars and disrupts the flow. But YMMV.)

4. Reign in the Budgets: I liked some of the special effects in these films, but sometimes it felt like they were throwing money at the screen hoping that would make the audience come in droves. There is a panning shot in Star Trek Beyond that is a beautiful shot of the York Town space station and we can see how much money they spent on it, it looks nice but adds nothing to the story, it looks like they blew the budget on something that could have been cut back. If some of these films were cheaper, they would have been more profitable.

Apart from using a beer factory as starship sets to cut costs of making new sets that likely couldn't be redressed and used elsewhere - which in some ways is actually very clever and anyone who has seen MST3K will have seen far, far worse "big budget" movies filming in the most interesting of places... a little more redress may have helped obfuscate the real life origins, but to rein in the budget and purdy f/x isn't going to happen, audiences have "expectations", which is just a euphemism for "we want big posh eye candy 'events' at the expense of everything else, once we get done whining about the high cost of tickets cuz we have no clue that's where the money goes or what's involved or like anything, and where's that merch." On the plus side, if the actual plot and characters are bad then the shorter length to accommodate the budget for the f/x turns out to be an unintentional plus as you're done with it that much quicker and less treacle to sit through.
 
I thought the callbacks in beyond were on the whole done extremely well (I mean who doesn't love the photo scene?), whereas I found into Darkness was a lot more heavy handed at times.
 
The Kelvin movies suffered because they gave the franchise to someone who really wanted to do Star Wars. The passion was never really there and once he left it created a void that nobody could properly fill.
 
I somewhat disagree, not just because the makers of ST09 were not sure it would take off the way it had. It's also not like Star Wars' movies (the original 1977-83 run) had any tightly written plans, either... or wasn't made up as it went along. So it happens.
Even if you don't plan ahead, you still can create a solid series of stories that have a beginning and an end. Take the original series movie for example. Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan was thought of to be the real last hoorah for everyone. Than they made Star Trek III that picks up where II left off, and again with IV. But here's where things get interesting. With IV, the writers managed to take two important story points from II and III and resolve them in the end.

1. Spock's death and resurrection comes full circle.
2. Kirk's longing to command a ship again from II is fulfilled.
3. The crew disobeying Starfleet from III is resolved.

I skip V.

VI on the other hand took one last thing it could resolve from the previous movies and that was Kirk's conflict with the Klingons and how Kirk is coming to terms with his son's death. With these movies, they managed to take what was done, expand on it and resolve it in a very satisfactory way that 'complimented' the story.

On that 'Strike While The Iron Is Hot' point, absolutely. It wasn't so much that Star Trek Into Darkness came in late into the game, but also delivering a movie that didn't do anything new or move the series forward. Is there anything story or plot wise that Star Trek Into Darkness introduced that was essential to Beyond? I don't see a problem going from Trek09 straight into Beyond.
 
I own all the IDW Kelvinverse comics! They're great. It's too bad they didn't do more novels.
Same here. We got a lot of comics about this trek because aside from the ongoing series of each movie, there are other story arcs. Mike Johnson did a decent job expanding on some things from the movies, as much as the comics format can allow, so much that on some aspects it did better than the movies, or I believe there are comics that would make a good movie if those stories were expanded on screen, thus a format that allows them to do more. It really shows that if you love the characters and are inspired, there are many stories you can create around them.
Would it be so impossible to find a creative team that is as inspired for the movies (where you can do more than in comics) too? I don't think so. The movies deserved better.

As for the novels, I have the starfleet academy ones and they are good. Like the comics, they expand on the dynamics showed in the movies and the characterization of this version of the characters. You can see the authors are, again, inspired by this timeline.

I know there were other novels (set after the first movie) that they didn't release anymore. It is really unfortunate and frustrating.
 
on top of the pointless nostalgia throw-in of having the one NuTribble there for no reason except NuMcCoy
nuTribble had already appeared with Scotty.
I don't see a problem going from Trek09 straight into Beyond.
Personally, I think you miss part of Kirk's arc and him growing past his arrogance and developing true leadership understanding, rather than just believing he could do no wrong.

I also think we miss part of Starfleet's response to Nero's attack. For me ST ID does something that I think TOS episodes often lacked-follow up.
 
Last edited:
Marketing is everything. It is in the little things too, I know for example they had waaay more promotional pictures of all the movies but only few of them were released to internet sites and magazines for, you know, promotion. Why? Why only give them few pictures and often the least interesting or repetitive ones.

I have to say that beyond's promotion also made some things seem worse than they were even in terms of characters and the dynamics too; that was worse for me than the 'fast and furious in space' tone from the first trailer.
It seemed like the movie was once again just a dudebro fest where Uhura was put away to give more screentime to the boys, and it exacerbated the idea some got that they were ignoring things like the new trio with Uhura etc (didn't help Alice Eve was written off too). While the movie certaintly was full on nostalgia and gave more screentime to old tos dynamics at the expense of the ones of this trek, and Uhura was sidelined compared to the first two (it's reflected in Urban also taking the actress spot in third top billed list which, no matter your preference, it is going backwards for something like trek, of all the things. I never needed to have the original trio again at any cost, making Uhura the third lead was a welcome change for me ), the actual movie wasn't that bad and she still has an important role, and also things like the romance weren't ignored or ditched. So I don't get why the creative team and promotion seemed to be on a mission to basically tell the fans of the first movies that this one would ignore or undone everything they liked in the other two.

I remember one picture they released that literally was only the boys in spite of both Uhura and Jaylah being in that scene from the movie. Some sites (and fans over social platforms like Twitter) were making fun of the movie being 'star trek beyond the women' because the fan event too was focused too much on the men only and none of the actresses were there. The big promotional event in Dubai also excluded both Zoe and Sofia, in spite of them filming scenes there too, for no apparent reason.
At one point they did some damage control and started showing Uhura and Jaylah in the posters, but it was too little too late for Uhura and kinda useless for Jaylah because no one knew her character yet so her posters couldn't capture the audience much, let alone the fans of these movies. It was also stupid how they didn't feature Idris Elba much, compared to Benedict for stid, seeing how popular the actor is.

If you wanna get the audience that likes the avengers, star wars and guardians of the galaxy on board I don't think, in this day and age, focusing your promotion and interviews on the guys only, and making it seems the movie is a dudebro fest that erases women or marginalizes the female lead of the first two is a great idea.
It also is a terrible idea to give even the littlest of impression that you are, as a creative team, in the same boat of the reboot haters who hated change, and hated the woman for getting 'in the way' of the original trio, so you are reassuring the fanboys that the white dudes status quo is restored and the movie is made for them.
It might give you allies among those fans, but I don't think it did a good job in making the general audience 'excited', let alone all the fans of the first two many of which liked the new dynamic(s) just fine.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top