Learning to love "Insurrection"

[BillJ]

Speculation. Mostly because, at least to my knowledge, the Sona were never in the Delta Quadrant where the Dominion was. Dialogue says the Baku had been on that planet for a long time, even before the Dominion War, and the feud for a long time before the Federation got involved with.

So that leads me to believe that the Sona and Baku are natives to the Alpha Quadrant.

Hmmm.... now I'm wondering if that could have actually been the original source of the feud: the white being made for a tyrannical government power.

No.

The Dominion had forces in the Alpha Quadrant when Sisko mined the wormhole, effectively cutting off the Dominion from supplies and reinforcements. The Dominion set up facilities to make Ketracel White in Cardassian space, but Starfleet was especially eager to destroy those facilities. Meaning they would need third-party suppliers to make the drug. Plus a third-party with no conflict with the Federation would be unlikely to be attacked. Even if they were making White.

The S'ona seem like a no-brainer since they were already committing heavy resources to health care to keep themselves alive. It was probably easy to convert one of their facilities to make White.

 

[Peach Wookiee]

And I don't get the hostility Gene would've had for it. I'd always wanted to see the Federation involved in a real war. Did he actually state somewhere that he was hostile to the idea? Did he make a statement to the public about that? Didn't he die before the Dominion War story arc?

He died before DS9 was even on the radar.

 

[Captrek]

And I don't get the hostility Gene would've had for it. I'd always wanted to see the Federation involved in a real war. Did he actually state somewhere that he was hostile to the idea? Did he make a statement to the public about that? Didn't he die before the Dominion War story arc?

He died before DS9 was even on the radar.

Not quite true. The basic concept of DS9 was run by him shortly before he died. From Wikipedia:

Roddenberry himself is quoted in The Making of Star Trek DS9 as having doubts that a non-exploration show could work, and being displeased with early concepts presented to him in 1991. However, Rick Berman stated in the Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Companion that Roddenberry had given him his blessing for developing it very close to his death.

At Shore Leave 14 in July 1992, Majel Barrett commented on Roddenberry's involvement, saying: "Uh, he knew about it, but he was not about to become involved. He had done what he wanted to do and that was it. He just wished them Godspeed and go ahead. And as long as the name Star Trek is on it, yes, the estate will have a part of the action."

 

[Dr. Crusher]

It would have made a great episode of TNG, it just wasn't strong enough to stand as a full length movie.

I agree with that. If it had been an episode of TNG, it may have been even one of the better ones, but it was definitely weak as a movie plot.

 

[AFEK ESLCAFE W]

At Shore Leave 14 in July 1992, Majel Barrett commented on Roddenberry's involvement, saying: "Uh, he knew about it, but he was not about to become involved. He had done what he wanted to do and that was it. He just wished them Godspeed and go ahead. And as long as the name Star Trek is on it, yes, the estate will have a part of the action."

So much for there being "no money in the future" and how "the acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives..."

As for Insurrection:

Insurrection is in my opinion the best directed film out of the 4 TNG entries, yet at the same time I believe that it was saddled with the poorest script.

It's true that Insurrection feels more true to TNG filled with optimism compared to the dark, pessimistic, and downbeat Nemesis, yet inspite of the shoddy direction and haphazard editting, Nemesis at least feels like a feature film presented on a grander and epic scale compared to the mundane and strictly by-the-numbers Insurrection.

I recently upgraded my TNG DVDs with Generations and First Contact. But, not this time. I would actually consider upgrading Nemesis over Insurrection, and even that film I consider to be worse than Pierce Brosnan's 007 swan song Die Another Day.

Personally, the late-Michael Piller should have started from scratch with a new premise -- something that would have hooked the audience's attention in droves to the multiplexes when there was a glut of quality sci-fi on the big and small screen at the time. I mean, "The Matrix" was only 4 months away from release and what we got was a not-well thoughtout ethical dilemma/moral premise with tripe dialogue like Data's passing comment about "how his boobs are firming up?" No amount of HD, Blu-ray, 1080p resolution upgrade can fix this film's fundamental problem: a poorly-written script.

Now, where does Insurrection rank for me? -- It ranks #11 out of all 11 Star Trek feature films produced so far.

 

[inflatabledalek]

Perhaps that was Rick Berman's way of sticking up his middle finger towards the Dominion war Ira Steven Behr created (cos Rick thought Ira had destroyed the universe he so carefully tailored after Gene Roddenberry's passing). I mean from Insurrection you would think the Federation was at peace. So yeah; it was deeply out of place considering the conditions.

If I'm remembering Piller's unpublished excellent making of book (which for anyone who hasn't come across a copy is well worth tracking down) correctly he did originally have an idea of starting with a Dominion/Enterprise engagement but was assured by Behr that by the time the film came out the war would be basically over in the series. Which obviously isn't how it worked out, and probably shows why tying into the war when there was such a difference in how far in advance the film had to be shot in relation to the episodes it would be premièring alongside was a bad idea, making things synch up would be a nightmare.

As for the film itself, I can enjoy it as a no brain big dumb film. Which is a shame because Piller very much wanted to do something that would make the viewer think, but on that score, for me, it fails. Because the second I start to think about anything that's going on it just seems silly. Frankly, there are several posts in this thread that make better arguments for Picard's actions that the film itself does, it's a very confused mess ethically, clearly wanting you to be firmly on the Ba'Ku's side whilst at the same time succeeding more at making them seem unlikable selfish jerks.

Watching the new comentary on the Blu Ray made it seem very apparent to me that Frakes didn't really believe in the Ba'Ku's stance either, even calling their claim of pacifism "Crap" at one point, and even though I agree with him to an extent (I think if evil stretchy faced aliens are trying to kill you that's a circumstance it's OK to fight back in. Or at the very least asking other people to fight and potentially die for you is a big double standard. I hope the Enterprise officer who got set on fire was allowed to be healed on the planet afterwards) I think that might be a large part of the problem.

If the director, who sets so much of the tone and style of the film, doesn't believe in what the message is trying to be is it that much of a surprise it seems to end up sabotaging itself?

 

[Peach Wookiee]

And I don't get the hostility Gene would've had for it. I'd always wanted to see the Federation involved in a real war. Did he actually state somewhere that he was hostile to the idea? Did he make a statement to the public about that? Didn't he die before the Dominion War story arc?

He died before DS9 was even on the radar.

Not quite true. The basic concept of DS9 was run by him shortly before he died. From Wikipedia:

Roddenberry himself is quoted in The Making of Star Trek DS9 as having doubts that a non-exploration show could work, and being displeased with early concepts presented to him in 1991. However, Rick Berman stated in the Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Companion that Roddenberry had given him his blessing for developing it very close to his death.

At Shore Leave 14 in July 1992, Majel Barrett commented on Roddenberry's involvement, saying: "Uh, he knew about it, but he was not about to become involved. He had done what he wanted to do and that was it. He just wished them Godspeed and go ahead. And as long as the name Star Trek is on it, yes, the estate will have a part of the action."

I cheerfully stand corrected.

 

[Vulagr]

Well, I guess in a way Gene was right. There's only so much bring the aliens to the station stories that you can do before it gets stale. Eventually they would have to bring a new ship, and that was the Defiant.

 

[Bread]

Well, I guess in a way Gene was right. There's only so much bring the aliens to the station stories that you can do before it gets stale. Eventually they would have to bring a new ship, and that was the Defiant.

I always saw the station as one of the 'characters' - no DS9, no wormhole, no story.

Perhaps I'm wrong though.

 

[The Dominion]

Yes, no DS9 no story. The show certainly wasn't about the Defiant, it just was an extension of what the characters could do.

 

[Dr. Crusher]

I actually saw this movie for the first time in a very long time (perhaps even since it first came out in 1998), and I have to say that although I appreciate the interaction and involvement all of the characters had in the action, seeing it again only confirmed for me that this might have been a great TNG episode in a modified form, but it wasn't a great movie. I think we expect wider implications from a Trek film--for example, "First Contact" documenting the first use of warp drive by humans and the first contact humans had with Vulcans embodies the idea of those wider implications. It's hard to watch a film that simply resets everything at the end. There are a lot of TNG episodes that reset, but that's Ok with episodes and not so Ok with movies.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Perhaps that was Rick Berman's way of sticking up his middle finger towards the Dominion war Ira Steven Behr created (cos Rick thought Ira had destroyed the universe he so carefully tailored after Gene Roddenberry's passing). I mean from Insurrection you would think the Federation was at peace. So yeah; it was deeply out of place considering the conditions.

If I'm remembering Piller's unpublished excellent making of book (which for anyone who hasn't come across a copy is well worth tracking down) correctly he did originally have an idea of starting with a Dominion/Enterprise engagement but was assured by Behr that by the time the film came out the war would be basically over in the series. Which obviously isn't how it worked out, and. probably shows why tying into the war when there was such a difference in how far in advance the film had to be shot in relation to the episodes it would be premièring alongside was a bad idea, making things synch up would be a nightmare.

As for the film itself, I can enjoy it as a no brain big dumb film. Which is a shame because Piller very much wanted to do something that would make the viewer think, but on that score, for me, it fails. Because the second I start to think about anything that's going on it just seems silly. Frankly, there are
several posts in this thread that make better arguments for Picard's actions that the film itself does, it's a very confused mess ethically, clearly wanting you to be firmly on the Ba'Ku's
side whilst at the same time succeeding more at making them seem unlikable selfish jerks.

Watching the new comentary on the Blu Ray made it seem very apparent to me that Frakes didn't really believe in the Ba'Ku's stance either, even calling their claim of pacifism "Crap" at one point, and even though I agree with him to an extent (I think if evil stretchy faced aliens are trying to kill you that's a circumstance it's OK to fight back in. Or at the very least asking
other people to fight and potentially die for you is a big double standard. I hope the Enterprise officer who got set on fire was allowed to be healed on the planet afterwards) I think that might be a large part of the problem.

If the director, who sets so much of the tone and style of the film, doesn't believe in what the message is trying to be is it that much of a surprise it seems to end up sabotaging itself?

This another reason why I like the original idea for the movie where the natives actually help with the fighting.

 

[BillJ]

This another reason why I like the original idea for the movie where the natives actually help with the fighting.

The passiveness of the Ba'ku are a major stumbling point for me. We're told that their to passive to defend their homeland, yet they were able to expel the S'ona from the whole planet.

It was a major disconnect in the story.

 

[WarsTrek1993]

The way I see it, INS is one of the weaker Trek flicks, but it still has some good moments. Such as:

Picard singing "A British Tar". "Sing, Worf, Sing!"

"The Riker Maneuver."

Geordi's vision restored.

"You know, I've never actually seen a sunrise. Not the way you see it..."

 

[Dr. Crusher]

^I am sure most people found it extremely corny, but I thought the moment when Data pops out of the haystack and says "I have to go home now" to the young man he is playing with was very amusing.

 

[WarsTrek1993]

True, that was extremely corny...

Though not as much as, "Smooth as an Android's bottom. Eh, Data?"

 

[Dr. Crusher]

True, that was extremely corny...

Though not as much as, "Smooth as an Android's bottom. Eh, Data?"

Agreed.

 

[SpockSandwich]

They stole the costume design for the peaceniks from Battle for the Planet Of The Apes.

 

[T'Girl]

"You know, I've never actually seen a sunrise. Not the way you see it..."

I do wonder what exactly happen to Geordi's sight. Geordi was born blind due to a birth defect, the effects of the rings "cured" the problem. So what happen? Did he have Doctor Crusher deliberately reblind him as some kind of political statement?

If Picard's girlfriend were to ever leave the planet/Brier Patch, would she fairly quickly age and die?

 

[Jeyl]

I'm just curious why nobody even asked the Baku for their planet. It's not like they wouldn't reason not to.

"We're at war with an invading alien menace known as the Dominion and our casualties are heavy. Even my counselor's homeworld has been conquered by them, and more systems are turning towards their cause. With this planet's unique rings we'll be able to advance medical science in ways we couldn't imagine. We would not only be able to save more lives from the battlefield, but also offer this technology to our allies and any other faction who would wish to defend the Alpha Quadrant.

Of course, you can say no, but I cannot guarentee that your planet will be kept secret for long since the Federation and the Sona both know of your planet's existance and it's special properties."

Of course, they don't ask that. Because if the Baku said no, that would make them out as a bunch of arrogant jerks who care only about themselves (which is what they are in this movie), and if they said yes, maybe it would have been a better movie.