Latinum and Buying
- Thread starter Plutodawn
- Start date
Well, you have to start somewhere, which does not negate my point.
No, a couple of characters say there's no money, then we see and hear of people in the Federation possessing and using money inside the Federation. Picard himself uses money on a Federation planet in one of the TNG episodes.
When Picard says money no longer exists, obviously he doesn't mean there isn't money within the Federation in any form.
I never stated that the Federation was a "cash-less" society. I said we are at the beginning of a cash-less society. Nevertheless, the Federation does not carry "cash", so my point still stands.
And theirs too?
Now that the vending machines at work take plastic cards, I'm pretty much cashless. And while I have numbers in my credit union's servers that are a measure of the value my employer deems I'm worth, I know I'm one mass corona ejection away from starvation and attempting trade with shiny objects. So maybe it's good to stockpile bullets, liquor, and gasoline for just such an occasion.
We might get away from exchanging money, but we won't get away from trading value (unless we resort to slavery).
We might get away from exchanging money, but we won't get away from trading value (unless we resort to slavery).
Theirs?
Would you like to suggest an alternate?
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/theirs
In the bar on Qualor II, Riker commented that he doesn't/never carries money, which would seem to be a strange statement if there was no form of physical money in the Federation.
Qualor II was apparently a Federation member planet.
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Doesn't gotta he physical, could be biometric or serialized account.
I also recall Janeway talking about a Vulcan merchant jacking the price up for some trinket she wanted to get Tuvok once the merchant saw they were Starfleet, as it would be "the logical thing to do".
Clear a Vulcan merchand and Starfleet officers are both in the federation, and a Vulcan saw that they could pay more, therefore, seems logical that Starfleet personnel were well compensated.
At first blush, seems fair, but wasn't the federation essentially a communistic society? Even in Kirk's era, food on earth had to he grown, and I doubt every farmer wanted to be a damn farmer- much less one so protective of his crops he chases after aliens in his fields with plasma rifles. I don't see late Soviet farmers caring that much prior to perestroika, as long as the alien kept away from them and they could pass off blame for crop damage onto him.
Obvious people got stuck working involuntary labor, he it a skirt at Mills Run in a Star Fleet bar waiting tables for starfleet, a dissapointed farmer in the Midwest so not living the dream.... I don't even want to imagine Africa prior to replicators. I'm doubting the same luxuries existed for the same amount of work in thus world government early on.
Now fast goreward to the era of mass replicated food, and "free electricity" federation could seriously bungle economics, and hardly nobody would notice save a few Russian style central banks. I'm presuming its Russian style, cause it doesn't look like the federation still had a stock market (DS9 mocked the Ferengi love of the old stock market on wall street, suggesting that era of capitalism was gone, meaning the federation somehow controlled investment and closures of said businesses).
Your essentially left with a select cadre, perhaps political, perhaps not, playing the galactic market for hard currencies you can't legally replicate, or just can't physically.
So.... big question, why do Star Fleet in a utopian communist society get more of this shit, and why does the apparently average civilian less- especially when it looks like all Starfleet can figure out what to do with it is buy needless unreplicated liqour and gamble away?
The economics of the future sounds suspiciously like it sucks. Why would I want to work as a waitress busting my butt when I can just sit in a house hugging my replicator? Why work in a factory? The chief product of the federation appears to be primarily aimed at sustaining federation troop morale and esprite. Another Sci Fi show did that too- Starship Troopers- and they were a fascist society. Military got more privledges, came first.
Is the Federation basically just a somewhat softer version of this? A fascist state with a smiley face? Japan during WW2 was Quasi-Fascist, military nearly succeed in a coup, but didn't quiet take down the legislator, but held none the less overwhelming power. Is the Federation just a kinder version of this, influenced by the early non-democratic success of the Asian Tiger economies?
Yes, federation had a democracy supposedly, but so did these states. Just wasn't effectively a democracy, and military clearly ruled. Remember Worf and Dax on Riza? Clearly can get away with murder.
I also recall Janeway talking about a Vulcan merchant jacking the price up for some trinket she wanted to get Tuvok once the merchant saw they were Starfleet, as it would be "the logical thing to do".
Clear a Vulcan merchand and Starfleet officers are both in the federation, and a Vulcan saw that they could pay more, therefore, seems logical that Starfleet personnel were well compensated.
At first blush, seems fair, but wasn't the federation essentially a communistic society? Even in Kirk's era, food on earth had to he grown, and I doubt every farmer wanted to be a damn farmer- much less one so protective of his crops he chases after aliens in his fields with plasma rifles. I don't see late Soviet farmers caring that much prior to perestroika, as long as the alien kept away from them and they could pass off blame for crop damage onto him.
Obvious people got stuck working involuntary labor, he it a skirt at Mills Run in a Star Fleet bar waiting tables for starfleet, a dissapointed farmer in the Midwest so not living the dream.... I don't even want to imagine Africa prior to replicators. I'm doubting the same luxuries existed for the same amount of work in thus world government early on.
Now fast goreward to the era of mass replicated food, and "free electricity" federation could seriously bungle economics, and hardly nobody would notice save a few Russian style central banks. I'm presuming its Russian style, cause it doesn't look like the federation still had a stock market (DS9 mocked the Ferengi love of the old stock market on wall street, suggesting that era of capitalism was gone, meaning the federation somehow controlled investment and closures of said businesses).
Your essentially left with a select cadre, perhaps political, perhaps not, playing the galactic market for hard currencies you can't legally replicate, or just can't physically.
So.... big question, why do Star Fleet in a utopian communist society get more of this shit, and why does the apparently average civilian less- especially when it looks like all Starfleet can figure out what to do with it is buy needless unreplicated liqour and gamble away?
The economics of the future sounds suspiciously like it sucks. Why would I want to work as a waitress busting my butt when I can just sit in a house hugging my replicator? Why work in a factory? The chief product of the federation appears to be primarily aimed at sustaining federation troop morale and esprite. Another Sci Fi show did that too- Starship Troopers- and they were a fascist society. Military got more privledges, came first.
Is the Federation basically just a somewhat softer version of this? A fascist state with a smiley face? Japan during WW2 was Quasi-Fascist, military nearly succeed in a coup, but didn't quiet take down the legislator, but held none the less overwhelming power. Is the Federation just a kinder version of this, influenced by the early non-democratic success of the Asian Tiger economies?
Yes, federation had a democracy supposedly, but so did these states. Just wasn't effectively a democracy, and military clearly ruled. Remember Worf and Dax on Riza? Clearly can get away with murder.
I think saying 'no money' just mean cashless society is a cop out, it must be more than that (at least by 24th century with replicators.)
As for why would anyone work if there's no pay, that is quite limited view. People have all sorts of non-material incentives to do stuff: to feel like a valuable member of the society, fun and (Picard's favourite) self improvement.
As for why would anyone work if there's no pay, that is quite limited view. People have all sorts of non-material incentives to do stuff: to feel like a valuable member of the society, fun and (Picard's favourite) self improvement.
And in ST VI, Scotty says that he just bought a boat. True, he doesn't say WHERE he bought it, but it's unlikely he had to travel outside of Federation territory to do so.
I'm not talking about the usage. You said "And theirs too?" Of whom were you referring? The Federation?
The Federation is not a cashless society, at least not in the TNG era. They claim to use no money at all.
A cashless society is basically what we have today, here in the real world. Yes, "cash" still exists, but it's not used for anything important. In the US, you cannot use large sums of cash for say...buying a car. Nor can you use cash for paying your mortgage, your utility bills, etc. The Bank, The power company, and the car dealership simply won't accept it.
But a cashless society is still based on currency, borrowing and lending, earnings, growth, interest, "the acquisition of wealth & things" as Picard would say.
yet TNG also has at least one mention of federation credits, and IIRC it's made during the main plot of the episode not just a barely audible comment by a background cast member in a side conversation
http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Federation_credit
http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Federation_credit
The only character, that I am aware of, that carried latinum at all times was Morn, specifically in one of his stomachs. Carrying latinum around seemed impractical.
I remember Quark employing a credit card-like scanner. Instead of reading a card, the scanner read the customer's thumb print. That would reduce the need to actually carry latinum/cash. The DS9 station seemed to be a cashless community, unless when someone was at the gambling table or making an illicit transaction.
I assume Starfleet DS9 personnel were given latinum credits, based on their work or something else, that could be used at the businesses on the promenade.
I also remember the scene where Quark forced Odo to pay for the infant changeling Odo wanted from Quark. Quark made Odo put his thumb on his scanner. Since Odo worked for the Bajorans, I assume that all the government employees on DS9, not just Starfleet personnel, used a credit system to make purchases; instead of actually carrying physical latinum.
I guess the value of goods and services, at least on DS9 and the surrounding space, are pegged to its price in latinum.
I remember Quark employing a credit card-like scanner. Instead of reading a card, the scanner read the customer's thumb print. That would reduce the need to actually carry latinum/cash. The DS9 station seemed to be a cashless community, unless when someone was at the gambling table or making an illicit transaction.
I assume Starfleet DS9 personnel were given latinum credits, based on their work or something else, that could be used at the businesses on the promenade.
I also remember the scene where Quark forced Odo to pay for the infant changeling Odo wanted from Quark. Quark made Odo put his thumb on his scanner. Since Odo worked for the Bajorans, I assume that all the government employees on DS9, not just Starfleet personnel, used a credit system to make purchases; instead of actually carrying physical latinum.
I guess the value of goods and services, at least on DS9 and the surrounding space, are pegged to its price in latinum.
But Crusher had a existing financial account in the pilot, she made a purchase and charged it to her account, this sound suspiciously like a cashless financial transaction.
Picard on Risa, purchased a small statue on Risa, from DS9 Risa is apparently a Federation member, Picard used the word "purchased."
Then maybe it's just on Earth that there is no currency
There is indeed a lot of inconsistencies about this, it is like the warp speeds, everyone needs to decide which evidence they find most compelling.
As for those two specific examples, Beverly was interacting with non-fed economy, so she had to pay. Even if there were no money in the Federation, Federation citizens interacting with money-based economies would need to pay somehow. I assume at least Starfleet officers, and perhaps all Fed citizens, would have some sort of a stipend for such purchases.
As for people saying things like 'buy' or 'purchase' one could assume that they're merely figures of speech, relics from older times. People still say 'hang up the phone', 'tape a show' or 'roll down the window' even though terms no longer accurately describe how these things are done today.
Alternatively, as we certainly know that foreign currencies such as latinum exist, there might be instances where the seller for some reason desired such currency (perhaps they planned to visit a Ferengi casino and needed some extra latinum, or they were foreigners and could use such currency in their own societies.)
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From the above link:
Ronald D. Moore commented: "By the time I joined TNG, Gene had decreed that money most emphatically did NOT exist in the Federation, nor did 'credits' and that was that. Personally, I've always felt this was a bunch of hooey, but it was one of the rules and that's that." (AOL chat, 1997)
So when Worf's adopted parents traveled off Earth, well how would they manage that? And what about Humans living off Earth, Humans living on Risa would need money. From VOY, Vulcans have a economy that includes money, do no Humans live on Vulcan?
Spock posed as a Vulcan interstellar businessman in Errand of Mercy.
Picard (born on Earth) doesn't receive Starfleet pay, but Beverly Crusher (born on the moon) does receive a paycheck?
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