News Latif: Dealing With Ash Tyler’s Sexual Assault

[Terok Nor]

This character will be written out. It's too difficult to keep track of who he is and what he's about. I don't really see where they can go with him in future seasons.

 

[Jinn]

Now it feels as if to keep 'Ash' as an active character we have to pick and choose when it's convenient to have Voq take the lead or Ash.

Voq won't take the lead anymore, his personality was deleted by L'Rell in "Vaulting Ambitions".

So it was Ash that was abused (which it really looked like that to me) but when 'Ash' killed Culber he was who?? He was Ash. That who he was.

Eh, no? I'm pretty sure he was Voq, Ash didn't really have a reason to kill Hugh.

He didn't flip out to his Voq side until he was in the Mirror Universe.

Yep, that's true. Good thing that the episode where he kills Hugh ("Despite Yourself") takes place after "Into the Forest I Go", which ends with them going into the mirror universe.

 

[thribs]

Considering how he used to constantly torment Steven Toast, he deserved it.

 

[Refuge]

It was definitely Ash who killed Culber. Disturbed or not, messed up or not, it was Ash.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

It was definitely Ash who killed Culber. Disturbed or not, messed up or not, it was Ash.

Based on?

 

[Refuge]

Ash had already killed Culber before he met his counterpart in the Mirror Universe. It was only then that he flipped out and attacked Michael too, taking on reverting back to Voq.

 

[skylark14]

It was definitely Ash who killed Culber. Disturbed or not, messed up or not, it was Ash.

I know there's no right answer to this question that everyone will accept, but I'm pretty sure it was Voq. He had been struggling to come to full consciousness and achieved it temporarily when he killed Culber. I thought he actually yelled out something in Klingon at that moment which was never translated onscreen? It looked to me as though the Tyler persona was in a blackout state and never knew he had killed the doctor until much later.

 

[Jinn]

Ash had already killed Culber before he met his counterpart in the Mirror Universe. It was only then that he flipped out and attacked Michael too, taking on reverting back to Voq.

It is very clear that Voq takes over Tyler before he snaps Hugh's neck. Hugh says "As far as I'm concerned you're not you." Then Tyler hears L'Rell's voice in his head saying something in Klingon, then he snaps Hugh's neck. It is very clear that this is not Ash Tyler's personality.

 

[Refuge]

I know there's no right answer to this question that everyone will accept, but I'm pretty sure it was Voq. He had been struggling to come to full consciousness and achieved it temporarily when he killed Culber. I thought he actually yelled out something in Klingon at that moment which was never translated onscreen? It looked to me as though the Tyler persona was in a blackout state and never knew he had killed the doctor until much later.

I cannot agree. The angst and guilt and confusion was of Ash. That personality was totally different to the one that took over when he attacked Michael and was Voq.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

He was fighting himself even before Culber's death. What happened in the MU was not his first reversion to Voq. First Voq killed Culber, then Ash went on a mission, then Voq disturbed the mission, then Ash tried to fix things, then Voq took control permanently and attacked Michael. During this last event, Voq literally states that he killed Culber to protect himself. The only way Ash could be responsible is if there is no real difference between Ash and Voq, which goes against both the show and your own argument.

 

[Refuge]

He was fighting himself even before Culber's death. What happened in the MU was not his first reversion to Voq. First Voq killed Culber, then Ash went on a mission, then Voq disturbed the mission, then Ash tried to fix things, then Voq took control permanently and attacked Michael. During this last event, Voq literally states that he killed Culber to protect himself.

That is too convenient. Ash as he believed he was, was fighting Post Traumatic Syndrome. He was haunted with flashes of apparent memory, but his base self was consistent. When Ash killed Culber *he* killed Culber. He was 'Ash' albeit haunted, but remained Ash until he lost it with Michael and tried to kill her. The personality that tried to kill Michael was not the same one that killed Culber. That was very clear. The Voq personality attacking Michael had to be restrained. The Ash one who killed Culber... simply carried on thereafter being Ash.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

That is too convenient. Ash as he believed he was, was fighting Post Traumatic Syndrome. He was haunted with flashes of apparent memory, but his base self was consistent. When Ash killed Culber *he* killed Culber. He was 'Ash' albeit haunted, but remained Ash until he lost it with Michael and tried to kill her. The personality that tried to kill Michael was not the same one that killed Culber. That was very clear. The Voq personality attacking Michael had to be restrained. The Ash one who killed Culber... simply carried on thereafter being Ash.

Then explain Voq's confession.

 

[Longinus]

I think it is a mistake to think that there is really two separate people in there. It is just one person with two personalities which wax and wane and sometimes overlap.

 

[skylark14]

It is very clear that Voq takes over Tyler before he snaps Hugh's neck. Hugh says "As far as I'm concerned you're not you." Then Tyler hears L'Rell's voice in his head saying something in Klingon, then he snaps Hugh's neck. It is very clear that this is not Ash Tyler's personality.

You're right. I had forgotten the voice was not spoken aloud but was internal. I never knew if it was Voq or L'Rell. Either way, since Tyler was not a Klingon, the voice was meant to signify that Voq had won control of the body, at least momentarily.

 

[skylark14]

I think it is a mistake to think that there is really two separate people in there. It is just one person with two personalities which wax and wane and sometimes overlap.

Hi, Longinus. I think it was you and I that had a good discussion on this very point months ago, so I won't jump into it fully again. I think there are arguments to be made for both opinions, but I lean toward the two separate people theory just because that seems to be the direction the writers want me to go. Maybe they'll surprise me with another one of their twists before it's over and prove you were right all along.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

I think it is a mistake to think that there is really two separate people in there. It is just one person with two personalities which wax and wane and sometimes overlap.

I mean, it would be simpler to understand were that the case, but both Culber and L'Rell seem to disagree with you.

 

[Refuge]

I think it is a mistake to think that there is really two separate people in there. It is just one person with two personalities which wax and wane and sometimes overlap.

It's mostly how the writers have framed it. They give us 'Ash' experiencing trauma from rape and he has my full sympathy. Rape is not a subject matter to dilute or use for cheap thrills. Yet nor is murder. Whatever assignation is applied to Tylok, Ash or Tyler it is muddied by putting a different 'hat' on the character to move the story.

Whatever he is now, all I know is he should be stood down. He's too damaged to be relied upon or of service.

 

[Longinus]

It just seems that with all this 'It was Voq', 'No, it was Tyler' arguments going on the obvious answer is that there is no clear answer because the distinction between them is not so clear-cut to begin with.

 

[borgboy]

It's mostly how the writers have framed it. They give us 'Ash' experiencing trauma from rape and he has my full sympathy. Rape is not a subject matter to dilute or use for cheap thrills. Yet nor is murder. Whatever assignation is applied to Tylok, Ash or Tyler it is muddied by putting a different 'hat' on the character to move the story.

Whatever he is now, all I know is he should be stood down. He's too damaged to be relied upon or of service.

All the discussion of Ash/Voq's identity really brings up not just his reliability to serve, but his culpability in Culber's murder and whatever punishment or rehabilitation he should be getting. It just seems crazy wrong that Ash was let off the hook so easily. I get that's what the narrative required, but it doesn't make any sense that he wasn't held for extensive study and treatment at the least. I don't feel like he's a safe and reliable person at all. Interesting as a character, definitely, but it seems obvious we need more exploration of his identity issues.

 

[Tuskin38]

This character will be written out. It's too difficult to keep track of who he is and what he's about. I don't really see where they can go with him in future seasons.

It isn't hard at all.