Latent Image Quandry

[nx1701g]

For those not remembering what the episode was about:

Star Trek: Voyager - Latent Image
When The Doctor discovers evidence that his memory files may have been tampered with, it sets in motion a chain of events that leads to the recollection of the death of a crewmember; a crewmember The Doctor believes he let die.


I have been recently thinking about the problem the Doctor faces in this episode. In the episode both Ensign Kim and another Ensign named Ahni Jetal were injured on an Away Mission. Both of them had severe injuries and an equal chance of survival. In it the Doctor chooses to help Harry Kim. As the episode progresses he begins to believe he only did so because Harry was his friend and for no other reason because the patients were equals in every sense of the word.

Isn't that a bit incorrect? Harry Kim was a Bridge Officer and a member of the Senior Staff. Anhi Jetal was a Junior Officer assigned to Engineering as a Deputy Engineer. Isn't it more likely this program selected Harry because he was a member of the Senior Staff?

Yeah I'm reading too much into it but this episode annoys me that much.

 

[Timo]

Well, Starfleet/Janeway had made Ensign Kim a bridge officer when he was very junior. They/she could do the same to Ensign Jetal any time they/she wished. So rank and position would probably be quite far down the list of things the EMH would check when deciding on who's the better patient...

Things that would count might include age (roughly the same), state of health (both healthy AFAWK), and the expected remaining lifetime with and without the procedure (probably the same, considering the previous two factors were the same). I wonder if the EMH would consider gender as a factor? Women could still live longer than men in that time and age. And Jetal could plausibly be a vital bearer of children in case the ship had to go generational, while Kim could be replaced by a sperm sample.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[nx1701g]

^ Though Harry was a Department Head (which supposedly has more intensive training) and at the time was in that role - which I'm sorry to say is more important than that of Ensign Jetal.

 

[exodus]

The ep. was more to show how "human" the EMH was becoming due to his ability to adapt and grow. Showing he had an emotional attachment to Harry is a human condition and not that of a machine.

Rewatch the scene between Seven & Janeway. Seven explains that she is also part machine and does Janeway see her as less than human because of it, much like how she is treating the Doctor. This ep. really shows how we treat people who maybe mentally ill or elderly and how we disregard them.

They allowed him to adapt and grow beyond his programming to become more like them. It's not fair to allow that too happen and then treat him as a machine when he has an emotional human dilemma.

BTW, I love the cinematography in this ep too. Especially the close up shot of the Doc. thinking things over in his office. I think they way they filmed it really helped put you in the Doc's shoes. Plus this too me is one of those eps. that proves that when the writers were on point, they could really write some good involving stories for this show.

 

[Pegaritaville]

nx1701g said:
Isn't that a bit incorrect? Harry Kim was a Bridge Officer and a member of the Senior Staff. Anhi Jetal was a Junior Officer assigned to Engineering as a Deputy Engineer. Isn't it more likely this program selected Harry because he was a member of the Senior Staff?

The fact that Harry's a member of the senior staff was probably way down on the list, but if all other factors were equal, I'd think the EMH's programming would take that into account when deciding who to treat.

Of course, the EMH could have avoided the quandry completely if he had just put one into stasis. Treat one, then bring the other out of stasis and get working on that patient.

 

[Timo]

The only things we have ever seen put in medical stasis are dead cadavers and (in "Invasive Procedures") Odo. The process may take a long time if conducted safely on a standard, live humanoid - too long to be effective in saving lives. Or then it hurts the subject, possibly fatally if he or she is in a bad shape to begin with.

At least some such explanation is needed to justify the fact that people still die onboard starships. That, or perhaps adherence to Crusher's "The Neutral Zone" statement that people in the 24ht century no longer fear death as much as today's people do.

No doubt the standard procedure is to let people die rather than bet their future on long term stasis and possible later healing. But this doesn't explain the failure to use short term stasis as a triage tool. Technological limitations would do that just fine, though. Medical stasis may simply be hard on your body.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[exodus]

Timo said:
The only things we have ever seen put in medical stasis are dead cadavers and (in "Invasive Procedures") Odo. The process may take a long time if conducted safely on a standard, live humanoid - too long to be effective in saving lives. Or then it hurts the subject, possibly fatally if he or she is in a bad shape to begin with.

At least some such explanation is needed to justify the fact that people still die onboard starships. That, or perhaps adherence to Crusher's "The Neutral Zone" statement that people in the 24ht century no longer fear death as much as today's people do.

No doubt the standard procedure is to let people die rather than bet their future on long term stasis and possible later healing. But this doesn't explain the failure to use short term stasis as a triage tool. Technological limitations would do that just fine, though. Medical stasis may simply be hard on your body.

Timo Saloniemi

In this case it also might have to do with the "victims" injuries. I believe in this story it had to do with neural damage. Even in stasis the brain would still need to function to keep the body alive. If the brain is at risk of being damaged, stasis won't stop the brain from degrading.

 

[od0_ital]

Timo said:
The only things we have ever seen put in medical stasis are dead cadavers and (in "Invasive Procedures") Odo...

Chakotay, Tuvok & Torres were all put in stasis in the penultimate episode of the series.

:thumbsup:

 

[exodus]

od0_ital said:

Timo said:
The only things we have ever seen put in medical stasis are dead cadavers and (in "Invasive Procedures") Odo...

Chakotay, Tuvok & Torres were all put in stasis in the penultimate episode of the series.

:thumbsup:

For what reasons?

 

[od0_ital]

exodus said:

od0_ital said:

Timo said:
The only things we have ever seen put in medical stasis are dead cadavers and (in "Invasive Procedures") Odo...

Chakotay, Tuvok & Torres were all put in stasis in the penultimate episode of the series.

:thumbsup:

For what reasons?

Ya haven't seen the episode?

They were put in so the Doctor could replace 'em as he tried to get the warp core to the aliens that had taken Janeway hostage.

 

[Timo]

Even in stasis the brain would still need to function to keep the body alive.

Not necessarily. The type of stasis used on corpses and Odo in Trek seems to halt everything, essentially stopping time from passing. If there were even minimal body processes still active in that sort of stasis, Odo could plausibly escape his imprisonment - so the invaders of "Invasive Procedures" apparently believed the technology brings life processes to an almost complete halt. In which case no brain activity is needed, either.

And usually the brain doesn't keep the body alive - it's vice versa... In today's terms, a "medical stasis" basically involves shutting down the brain so that the body can have a short holiday.

The kind of stasis that kept the crew out of the way in VOY "One" and then "Renaissance Man" seem to be less complete than that, perhaps nothing more than a deep sleep - but the process of entering those may be incompatible with severe medical conditions. Then there are all sorts of cruder stasis methods, such as cryostasis, which probably kills a certain percentage of perfectly healthy people, too.

There is the final option of storing the person in a transporter buffer, as in VOY "Counterpoint" (and more primitively in TNG "Relics"), but that, too, probably has an unacceptable failure rate and untidy medical effects...

The bottom line is that nobody in modern Trek is ever put in stasis to wait for later surgery. Cultural mores, technology limitations... Whatever the explanation, it seems to cover all the bases. Makes triage more demanding than it perhaps needs be, perhaps. But then again, ethics often get in the way of efficient medicine even today. And the 24th century people seem to believe solidly that this is as it should be.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[exodus]

od0_ital said:

exodus said:

od0_ital said:

Timo said:
The only things we have ever seen put in medical stasis are dead cadavers and (in "Invasive Procedures") Odo...

Chakotay, Tuvok & Torres were all put in stasis in the penultimate episode of the series.

:thumbsup:

For what reasons?

Ya haven't seen the episode?

They were put in so the Doctor could replace 'em as he tried to get the warp core to the aliens that had taken Janeway hostage.

They weren't put in for "medical" reasons.

 

[exodus]

Timo said:

Even in stasis the brain would still need to function to keep the body alive.

Not necessarily. The type of stasis used on corpses and Odo in Trek seems to halt everything, essentially stopping time from passing. If there were even minimal body processes still active in that sort of stasis, Odo could plausibly escape his imprisonment - so the invaders of "Invasive Procedures" apparently believed the technology brings life processes to an almost complete halt. In which case no brain activity is needed, either.

And usually the brain doesn't keep the body alive - it's vice versa... In today's terms, a "medical stasis" basically involves shutting down the brain so that the body can have a short holiday.

The kind of stasis that kept the crew out of the way in VOY "One" and then "Renaissance Man" seem to be less complete than that, perhaps nothing more than a deep sleep - but the process of entering those may be incompatible with severe medical conditions. Then there are all sorts of cruder stasis methods, such as cryostasis, which probably kills a certain percentage of perfectly healthy people, too.

There is the final option of storing the person in a transporter buffer, as in VOY "Counterpoint" (and more primitively in TNG "Relics"), but that, too, probably has an unacceptable failure rate and untidy medical effects...

The bottom line is that nobody in modern Trek is ever put in stasis to wait for later surgery. Cultural mores, technology limitations... Whatever the explanation, it seems to cover all the bases. Makes triage more demanding than it perhaps needs be, perhaps. But then again, ethics often get in the way of efficient medicine even today. And the 24th century people seem to believe solidly that this is as it should be.

Timo Saloniemi

Corpses are dead bodies, so they have no brain function. Odo isn't human nor is he even humanoid. He's sentient liquid and has no "brain" as we know it. Much of Odo and his people and how they function is still very much a mystery to us.

 

[od0_ital]

exodus said:

od0_ital said:

exodus said:

od0_ital said:

Timo said:
The only things we have ever seen put in medical stasis are dead cadavers and (in "Invasive Procedures") Odo...

Chakotay, Tuvok & Torres were all put in stasis in the penultimate episode of the series.

:thumbsup:

For what reasons?

Ya haven't seen the episode?

They were put in so the Doctor could replace 'em as he tried to get the warp core to the aliens that had taken Janeway hostage.

They weren't put in for "medical" reasons.

Neither was Odo in 'Invasive Procedures', but he was still put in stasis, just like Chakotay, Tuvok & Torres, even if it was for different reasons.

 

[exodus]

od0_ital said:

exodus said:

od0_ital said:

exodus said:

od0_ital said:

Timo said:
The only things we have ever seen put in medical stasis are dead cadavers and (in "Invasive Procedures") Odo...

Chakotay, Tuvok & Torres were all put in stasis in the penultimate episode of the series.

:thumbsup:

For what reasons?

Ya haven't seen the episode?

They were put in so the Doctor could replace 'em as he tried to get the warp core to the aliens that had taken Janeway hostage.

They weren't put in for "medical" reasons.

Neither was Odo in 'Invasive Procedures', but he was still put in stasis, just like Chakotay, Tuvok & Torres, even if it was for different reasons.

I just explained Odo isn't humanoid nor does he have anything close to a humanoid brain.


Damn Odo , don't you know what even the hell you are yourself?

 

[nx1701g]

Denara Pel was placed into stasis aboard Voyager while they attempted to heal her injuries (but her mind was placed into a holographic body)

 

[Pegaritaville]

od0_ital said:

Timo said:
The only things we have ever seen put in medical stasis are dead cadavers and (in "Invasive Procedures") Odo...

Chakotay, Tuvok & Torres were all put in stasis in the penultimate episode of the series.

:thumbsup:

And don't forget the episode "One", where everybody except Seven was put into stasis while crossing the Mutara nebula. Granted, some of them had bad reactions (Tom Paris, for one), but that was for weeks, not a few hours.

If the stasis chamber could be used to protect the crew from that, I'd think it could used to delay the treatment of a critically injured crewmwmber for a short time.

 

[The Borg Queen]

Not having a second Doctor running in the Mobile emitter doesn't help either...

 

[Huntingdon]

Timo said:


The bottom line is that nobody in modern Trek is ever put in stasis to wait for later surgery.

Genesis.

Dr. Crusher is put in stasis after Worf sprays her with some sort of acid. The implication was that she would have died if they hadn't done that.

 

[The Borg Queen]

The whole story is just another on of those ones where "the canon technology would resolve the plot too quickly, so we'll ignore it exists" episodes.

Star Trek is full of them, it's no big deal.