I'm really consonfused and curious as to how they could get it that wrong..
We've been informed that sales for "Before Dishonor" were excellent, so Pocket Books doesn't believe they got it "wrong".
ACME, of course.
Wile E Coyote: super genius.
Latecomer To This: JANEWAY DIED?!?
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We've been informed that sales for "Before Dishonor" were excellent, so Pocket Books doesn't believe they got it "wrong".
ACME, of course.
Wile E Coyote: super genius.
To tell the truth I never cared for Kes, and so on a personal level I was perfectly happy to let her go to. I'm not saying that I loved ALL the characters, but I do find most of them essential and yes Tuvok is one of them, and so is Janeway, Chakotay, Tom Paris, B'Elanna Torres, The EMH, Neelix - hell even Harry Kim is essential for me though the way he was casted on the show was rather blah.
Tuvok might be gone in your universe, but he's not gone in the universe that I'd want to read about, which just might be another issue I have with Full Circle and future Voyager books IF they take the direction the previous books you've described here have mapped out for them, meaning that Voyager characters have moved to other series.
Several of us have said that we want Voyager books with a very much alive and well Janeway in it, but I've never said that Janeway was all that such a book needed. NEVER!! And I never will.
As I said, please reread my previous post.
Ahh...no worries. Besides it gave me an opportunity to say again that it might not necessarily be about boycotting, but more about missing out on an opportunity to capture readers they wouldn't otherwise get.
Oh and I really don't think using examples from other shows and series have much relevance here.
Janeway has a pretty big fanbase and I'm a member of it. She was not only the first female captain, she was also damned special and we loved her for 7 years on the show and has continued to love her. There is just something about her and Voyager that attracts women in particular, and more so than the other shows (personally, I dont care much for any of the other Star Trek series).
Therefore an example from another show/series might not be compearable to one involving Janeway and say...Chakotay.
Actually Janway was not the first captain the captain of the Saratoga in Star Trek IV was and then there was Captain Tryla Scott in Conspiracy, and Captain Rachel Garrett of the Enterprise-C in Yesterday's Enterprise. Janeway was only the first female Captain to be a series regular.
Well, good for them, but that still doesn't take the posibility of increased sales into account. Besides didn't somebody state that the sales today is far less than it was 10 years ago or so? Perhaps they could get back some of what they lost if... Perhaps not, but perhaps they could.
My gosh you're so focused on how fantastic is it right now and totally disregarding (well some of you are, but I realize not all) that there might actually be posibilities out there, which could broaden the perspective and give them an even better sale.
But whatever...I can't change their's or your opinions and frankly I don't care to. You're allowed to your opinion and I'm allowed to challenge it.
And with that I'm definitely off cause the tone just took a turn that I do not care for.
Gorf, you really do have a point there and no one is saying otherwise. The flipside of that, though, is that they attracted plenty of new readers by killing Janeway, also; not because she was dead, but because it showed they were taking real risks and telling a unique story.
How do you know that those readers don't outnumber the ones you talk about? One couldn't have pleased both at the same time.
How do you know that those readers don't outnumber the ones you talk about? One couldn't have pleased both at the same time.
All I can say is...whatever and I guess I just wasted a lot of hours having what I thought was an interesting and objective debate, but I must have been mistaken because I never said that and you know it.
I apologize for the exaggeration, it may have been uncalled for. I just find the whole position that removing any main character at all will kill a story patently ridiculous. There are so many examples of places where this has happened and things have still been ok that I think that it's a completely indefensible position.
Are the DS9 books off limits because Sisko isn't in command? Did you stop watching DS9 when Dax died? Did you not watch the last three episodes of Voyager because Neelix had left? Had you given up on the whole concept of any relaunch for the same reason, unless they swung back to pick him up? It's just such a ridiculous idea to me.
I mean, yes, obviously you want to read stories about characters you like, but why would Tuvok's stories on Titan be any different from Tuvok's stories on Voyager? Is TNG over because Riker has his own ship?
Are the DS9 books off limits because Sisko isn't in command? Did you stop watching DS9 when Dax died? Did you not watch the last three episodes of Voyager because Neelix had left? Had you given up on the whole concept of any relaunch for the same reason, unless they swung back to pick him up? It's just such a ridiculous idea to me.
I mean, yes, obviously you want to read stories about characters you like, but why would Tuvok's stories on Titan be any different from Tuvok's stories on Voyager? Is TNG over because Riker has his own ship?
I don't and neither do you.
However, one scenario shouldn't exclude the other in my opinion, but fine if they don't want me and my money, they can't have it.
I've said it before. If they'd rather keep it as it is, then by all means do so, but if they want to attract new/old disillutioned readers then they sure as hell need to change direction or rather create a direction that will allow for our needs while not robbing you of yours.
I seriously do not get all this canon stuff, but I suppose that's my European mind. I couldn't care less what went on in previous books as long as they tell a good story. So kill her in one book and keep her alive in another, have her in the AQ in one book and send her out to the DQ in another. I seriously don't care.
But the problem with that, Gorf, is that many people DO care. For a lot of people, having the books all ignore each other and tell whatever story they want would rob the whole entire enterprise of any worth at all; if it's not one consistent story, why bother?
ANY decision they make will have people that love it, and people that hate it. ANY decision will turn on some readers and turn off others.
The overall decrease in sales is inevitable as Star Trek fades from the public mind, sci-fi sales drop altogether, and we arrive at economic recession. That's a separate issue. The fact is, gaining any new readers necessitates annoying others, and that's a straight up fact.
ANY decision they make will have people that love it, and people that hate it. ANY decision will turn on some readers and turn off others.
The overall decrease in sales is inevitable as Star Trek fades from the public mind, sci-fi sales drop altogether, and we arrive at economic recession. That's a separate issue. The fact is, gaining any new readers necessitates annoying others, and that's a straight up fact.
I've gotta say, I couldn't disagree more. Killing Janeway is one of the things that's really put me off the post-Nemesis fiction of late, but credit where credit's due, that continuity between the different novel series is one of the strengths of the line.
I absolutely understand where people are coming from on the subject, but at the end of the day, there's nothing wrong with the choices Pocket have made, it just that some of us don't like them. There's an easy solution to that; don't buy the books. And if you absolutely have to tell them why, tell them, but don't make it personal.
First off, I don't give a crap about what has been going on in other books and what worked and didn't work before for other series. It simply does NOT relate to me and anybody saying so obviously haven't read my posts without intrepreting an awful low.
Maybe the fact that there's still a Janeway fanbase out there and a strong J/C community in particular should tell you that there really IS something special about her, him, the show, but wait...what am I saying...you don't believe we really exist.
Oh well - who cares.
Secondly, I never watched DS9. I live in a country where Star Trek is considered a cultish thing and the few TNG episodes that were actually showed were on at 3 or 4 am, which just wasn't an option for me. Add to that that they didnt show them until loooooooooooong after TNG ended.
I actually had to buy all the Voyager episodes on video to watch them, which cost me a total of about 3.500 USD over a period of a few years. If that isn't dedication to a show, I don't know what is. I don't mind spending money on something I want and enjoy, but I'll be damned if I spend a dime on something that doesn't promise something in return - in my opinion of course. And dont mention the library cause that's so not an option for me.
I started watching Voyager one evening when I was bored out of my mind and Voyager was all there was. I remember thinking 'no way' but then decided I could always turn it off if it got too boring.
However, I was hooked and what got me hooked in the first place was none other than the Janeway character.
Call me ridiculous if you like, but that's how it is and YES I AM attached to that character.
The EMH comes in a close second for me with several in line after him, but YES Janeway IS the character that got me hooked and YES I do NOT believe Voyager is Voyager without her, just like it won't be Voyager without the rest of those I love on the show.
Whether DS9 can do without Sisko has to be up to the people who truly love that show. I cannot and will not be a judge there. It is simply not my place to judge about a show I know nothing about.
No, I did not stop watching when Neelix left, but I did miss him greatly and I would have prefered if he had stayed, but since he wasn't my main reason for watching and Janeway was still there...now had they killed Janeway I just might have considered the show a waste of time.
However, that's a moot point now, isn't it? After all they didn't kill her on the show and so we'll never know, and you know what...I think there's a reason they kept her!
It may be ridiculous and you may have very little respect for me, but killing Janeway has turned me off the books and that's NOT ridiculous to me.
Like with DS9 whether TNG is over because Riker has his own ship must depend on how the TNG fans feel about this. Again I never cared for either TNG or Riker and so I cannot judge here either - and you're not going to make me.
Tuvok on Titan...that might be all well for the rest of you, but for me he belongs on Voyager. Period!!!
I'm not questioning, and have never questioned, your dedication to Voyager, nor have I said your opinion that you don't want to read stories with Janeway dead was invalid or even curious. Nor did I suggest you cared about other books, except in that Pocket has decided on one over-arching continuity, so there will certainly not be a split-off series with Janeway alive in coexistence with the current books started any time soon.
My argument was this: it seemed to me as though you were arguing that the departure of any main character from Voyager made it "no longer Voyager", as a fact rather than an opinion, and this I found absurd, as main characters depart from shows all the time but people keep watching.
And of course I recognize the existence of a relatively large community of J/C shippers; that's not even in question. The question is whether there were enough of them that won't buy the books now that she's dead but would if a J/C story was pursued to make an enormous impact in sales, and this seems like a much less likely proposition.
You also say "if they'd killed Janeway, I just might have considered the show a waste of time". I apologize; this is the internet and not speech, and I can't tell if that's meant to be sarcastic or not. If not, why is there a "might" when it comes to TV, but a "definitely" when it comes to books?
And finally, how do you know that Titan isn't just as interesting a set of characters? You might love them just as much as you loved Janeway et al.
My argument was this: it seemed to me as though you were arguing that the departure of any main character from Voyager made it "no longer Voyager", as a fact rather than an opinion, and this I found absurd, as main characters depart from shows all the time but people keep watching.
And of course I recognize the existence of a relatively large community of J/C shippers; that's not even in question. The question is whether there were enough of them that won't buy the books now that she's dead but would if a J/C story was pursued to make an enormous impact in sales, and this seems like a much less likely proposition.
You also say "if they'd killed Janeway, I just might have considered the show a waste of time". I apologize; this is the internet and not speech, and I can't tell if that's meant to be sarcastic or not. If not, why is there a "might" when it comes to TV, but a "definitely" when it comes to books?
And finally, how do you know that Titan isn't just as interesting a set of characters? You might love them just as much as you loved Janeway et al.
I think one important factor is if the series in question is an ensemble series or if there are one or even more characters in it that actually carry the series and define it.
Looking at Voyager, Tuvok is definitely not one of them. I don`t think it is a problem for Voyager Relaunch or whatever you want to call it that he is on Titan. But I think Janeway was a carrying character of the Voyager series and it is understandable that removing her especially by killing her upsets fans of that series and especially that character.
In TNG, the main carrying character is Picard. In NF it is definitely Calhoun and to a bit lesser degree Shelby. Titan without Riker and Deanna is difficult to imagine. In DS9 Relaunch, the main carrying character is definitely Kira.
I can`t think of any such character in Vanguard, SCE or Klingon Empire. All these series have lots of characters that are very dear to me but these are more ensemble series than others.
I don`t buy the Shatnerverse because I don`t like these books. I very rarely buy TOS and there is a good chance now that I won`t buy more Voyager books after "Full Circle". But that won`t stop me from enjoying other Star Trek series.
Also, Star Trek books are not my only hobby and not the only books I enjoy.
Looking at Voyager, Tuvok is definitely not one of them. I don`t think it is a problem for Voyager Relaunch or whatever you want to call it that he is on Titan. But I think Janeway was a carrying character of the Voyager series and it is understandable that removing her especially by killing her upsets fans of that series and especially that character.
In TNG, the main carrying character is Picard. In NF it is definitely Calhoun and to a bit lesser degree Shelby. Titan without Riker and Deanna is difficult to imagine. In DS9 Relaunch, the main carrying character is definitely Kira.
I can`t think of any such character in Vanguard, SCE or Klingon Empire. All these series have lots of characters that are very dear to me but these are more ensemble series than others.
I don`t buy the Shatnerverse because I don`t like these books. I very rarely buy TOS and there is a good chance now that I won`t buy more Voyager books after "Full Circle". But that won`t stop me from enjoying other Star Trek series.
Also, Star Trek books are not my only hobby and not the only books I enjoy.
What you're seeing are the handful that are brave enough to post. What goes on in these thread gets discussed at other boards
Previous posts discuss this. As far as Voyager and Janeway go there hasn't been much out there to read. That doesn't mean that there aren't fans who wouldn't buy a book featuring an alive Janeway if one were to be done.
There are people who don't think Janeway should be brought back who are just as obsessed if you go by this thread. Actually, I'm starting to wonder if you've even read it!
And the fact that they ARE posting over and over again pretty much kills your idea they are uncomfortable posting here since they are doing it over and over again.
Probably not. Now they know there's a market they've been missing out on but you're right - that doesn't mean they're going to do anything about it.
And as has already been stated, sales have nothing to do with quality, or even whether those who did buy the book enjoyed it.
Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
I'm with you there. I have a stack of unread books in my living room - none of them Trek. Running out of things to read isn't high on my list of current worries.
And yet another magical science fiction character resurrection may make other people angry enough to cause sales to drop.
The writers will continue to tell the very best stories they possibly can - they are being paid to do so - but for every choice made there are hundreds and hundreds that are not made. Well to the real world.
My tone?
You said: "But it won't be Voyager either without...you got it - JANEWAY!
"
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Exactly, but Pocket Books doesn't believe they got it "wrong". But without some good word of mouth, novels die a death on the shelves.
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All that's totally a matter of opinion, though. One could make the argument that Klag was the central figure of Klingon Empire just as easily, and on the flip side I can tell you for a fact that I'd be fascinated to continue reading a post-Picard's-death TNG, a post-Deanna's-death Titan, or (to an admittedly lesser extent) a post-Calhoun's-death NF. (I mean, I actually thought he was dead when I bought the first two Excalibur books, so I already made that choice.)
And if nothing else, you mentioned that in the DS9 relaunch, the carrying character was Kira; not in DS9 itself. On the TV show, it was pretty clearly Sisko. So here's the Voyager relaunch - why not afford it the same consideration, and wait to see who the carrying character might be in this, as a separate story? Or perhaps the VOY relaunch, separate from the Voyager show, will be an ensemble story like Vanguard. Who knows?
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