Latecomer To This: JANEWAY DIED?!?

[Gorf]

Perhaps some continued their boycott...

I have no intention of boycotting future Star Trek books - I just won't buy them.

I have never bought any books except those written for the Voyager series and if Janeway is dead then they simply hold no interest for me.

As I said earlier, I don't care if they MIGHT bring her back at some later point. Unless I know that they will for a fact bring her back and that it will be in the NEXT book then I'm out.

It really doesn't matter what fans of another show did or didn't do - I speak only for me and that's my standpoint.

 

[Thrawn]

And that's fair. But you're not one of the people arguing that you and fans like you will make the whole franchise so unpopular that S&S will lose the Trek license and someone else will have to take over, for example, which another poster did indeed say.

 

[Octavia]

were you asked to come here? because I find it odd that in the span of about a week, we seem to have gained a number of new posters who all have popped up with the same point.

There's nothing hidden here. Lynx told us he knew "lots" of Janeway fans from other boards and was informing them of these threads.

Ah right - it's my own lazyiness, I couldn't be bothered to read all of the thread - thanks for clearing that up.

Out of curiosity, would it be an issue if Lynx had gone to these other boards (whatever or whereever they are) and said: "I think [this] is the greatest thing any ST book has ever done. A lot of people are talking about it at TrekBBS - want to come over and join us?"

I can't help but think that complaints about people coming from other boards likely only apply when said people disagree with the prevailing opinion here, yes? Had so many discussions popped up about how marvellous Pocket was for the blindingly wonderful decision to kill off Janeway, and the truly expert execution thereof, many of those who are now complaining about new posters might be more welcoming.

In which case, it's not that there's new posters arriving, it's that there are new posters arriving with different opinions.

 

[Gorf]

I agree with all of this, but my one caveat regarding this particular discussion is that, since Full Circle has yet to arrive, we're all stuck arguing over whether or not Janeway being killed could have been a good idea, rather than whether or not it was.

Nope, nope and afraid not.

What you forget here is the difference between our two standpoints.

You believe that killing Janeway has furthered the storyline and created many new directions for the Voyager relaunch to go.

However, us newbies consider the very fact that Janeway dies in the middle of the book to be a complete turn off, and so whether you end up considering the book a success or not really doesn't matter to us.

Actually, no, I didn't misrepresent your argument at all, as far as I can tell.

You feel as though Janeway's death could not possibly have been a good idea, I feel as though it could possibly have been a good idea. Anyone who holds the position that it couldn't possibly have been a good idea would of course have no reason at all to read the book in which she died. I was mostly speaking of myself

I didn't say you misrepresented me. I said that I disagreed when you started speaking for us and not just yourself by using the word 'we'.

I agree entirely with the notion that YOU can't say for sure whether it was a good idea or not until you've read the book, but I can - hence there's no...we.

 

[Thrawn]

There's nothing hidden here. Lynx told us he knew "lots" of Janeway fans from other boards and was informing them of these threads.

Ah right - it's my own lazyiness, I couldn't be bothered to read all of the thread - thanks for clearing that up.

Out of curiosity, would it be an issue if Lynx had gone to these other boards (whatever or whereever they are) and said: "I think [this] is the greatest thing any ST book has ever done. A lot of people are talking about it at TrekBBS - want to come over and join us?"

I can't help but think that complaints about people coming from other boards likely only apply when said people disagree with the prevailing opinion here, yes? Had so many discussions popped up about how marvellous Pocket was for the blindingly wonderful decision to kill off Janeway, and the truly expert execution thereof, many of those who are now complaining about new posters might be more welcoming.

In which case, it's not that there's new posters arriving, it's that there are new posters arriving with different opinions.

Well, actually, yes; I, at least, have pretty much the same reaction to "POCKET IS SO STUPID AND HATES THE FANS BECAUSE THEY KILLED JANEWAY" as I have to "THANK GOD SOMEONE FINALLY KILLED THE BITCH", and if we'd gotten a huge influx of the latter, I would find that just as objectionable.

I, at least, have tried as hard as possible to not disrespect those with honest disagreements that have come and tried to discuss them, as long as they were not disrespectful of the authors and fans that DO think this is a (potentially) good idea. When and if I have failed in that regard, it is an error of execution on my part, not an error of motivation, and I sincerely apologize.

 

[Gorf]

And that's fair. But you're not one of the people arguing that you and fans like you will make the whole franchise so unpopular that S&S will lose the Trek license and someone else will have to take over, for example, which another poster did indeed say.

Yes, but since 'Therin of Andor' quoted me in the post that I replied to, I can only assume that said post was for me, not them.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I'd like to say, though, that The Captain's Daughter is, I think, a pretty damn solid book; the question is not "were the fans right that it'd make a good story?" The question is if a small number of people on a forum actually means anything. And in the one case I can recall where this was tested, it didn't.

Exactly. "The Captain's Daughter" is an excellent ST book, and PAD is a highly recognizable name. For perhaps many varied reasons combined, it proved to be a fizzer. Maybe people (at the time) didn't care to find out more about Demora Sulu, maybe they reacted adversely to the Enterprise-B's captain (although a "Lost Era" novel featured him, and that crew, and was very successful), maybe the TOS-only people thought it sounded too TNG and the TNG-only fans thought it was too TOS?

I'm sure the demographer and marketing person tried to find out, or maybe they were fired?

One of publishing's little mysteries.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Yes, but since 'Therin of Andor' quoted me in the post that I replied to, I can only assume that said post was for me, not them.

See, this is something I'm always being called out for. Our ideas of netiquette must differ. I quoted you to show what part of previous conversation inspired me to make my next post. It wasn't necessarily directed only at you. I'd PM you for that.

I always post assuming it's for everyone to read.

 

[Gorf]

Ahh...no worries. Besides it gave me an opportunity to say again that it might not necessarily be about boycotting, but more about missing out on an opportunity to capture readers they wouldn't otherwise get.

Oh and I really don't think using examples from other shows and series have much relevance here.

Janeway has a pretty big fanbase and I'm a member of it. She was not only the first female captain, she was also damned special and we loved her for 7 years on the show and has continued to love her. There is just something about her and Voyager that attracts women in particular, and more so than the other shows (personally, I dont care much for any of the other Star Trek series).

Therefore an example from another show/series might not be comparable to one involving Janeway and say...Chakotay.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Fine but Spock as it turns out did come back.

My point being that the boycotters wanted to know in advance if the death was permanent, and as of ST II's box office success, and Nimoy's public comments, it was.

The script for ST III was written in such a way that anyone could play Spock. In the "Return to Genesis" synopsis, Spock was merely a vague disembodied wraith appearing in mirrors. In the final script, he was played by a succession of young actors and - had Director Nimoy decided not to return after all - actor Joe W Davis might have been beamed off Genesis before he aged into Nimoy's Spock.

But then, even "the fans" boycotting the film couldn't agree amongst themselves. Was it Spock not to die at any cost, or that only Nimoy should play Spock, or just that ST needed a resident Vulcan (Xon, Sonak, Dr Savik, Lieutenant Saavik, Valeris)?

The destruction of the Enterprise in ST III brought in a new conundrum: suddenly, although people had been saying, "But Spock is the key player in Star Trek's success; Star Trek can survive anything except the loss of Spock..." others were now saying, just as loudly, "But the Enterprise is the key element in Star Trek's success; Star Trek can survive anything except the loss of the Enterprise..."

Similarly, when TNG started people were saying, "But Kirk and Spock are the key players in Star Trek's success; Star Trek can survive anything except there must be the participation of Kirk and Spock..."

With the new movie coming up, they've said, "But William Shatner is the key player in Star Trek's success; Star Trek can't survive a young interloper is playing James T Kirk..."

And now, "But Janeway is the key player in Voyager's success; 'Star Trek: Voyager' can survive anything except the loss of Janeway..."

"And Kes, and Seven, and Chakotay, and the ship, and the EMH, and Neelix, and...."

Star Trek fans, it seems, are very afraid of change. Doesn't IDIC suggest we should be more open to possibilities for change?

 

[Therin of Andor]

Oh and I really don't think using examples from other shows and series have much relevance here.

If other similar examples have no relevance how can anyone prove the likelihood of anything?

So Pocket should run on gut feelings alone?

 

[Gorf]

And now, "But Janeway is the key player in Voyager's success; 'Star Trek: Voyager' can survive anything except the loss of Janeway..."

Nope. I don't think Voyager would survive without the rest of the main characters. It simply wouldn't be Voyager.

But it won't be Voyager either without...you got it - JANEWAY!

Ok, so I could survive without Seven, but that isn't the issue.

 

[Gorf]

Oh and I really don't think using examples from other shows and series have much relevance here.

If other similar examples have no relevance how can anyone prove the likelihood of anything?

So Pocket should run on gut feelings alone?

In all honesty, you can't - prove the likelihood of anything that is. At least I don't think so.

We're all different. What worked or maybe rather didnt work for another show years ago might or might not work today.

I think they more or less gamble everytime they publish a book. After all there's never any guarantee that the readers are going to agree with the publisher that it's a success.

If nothing else, this discussion proves that.

Edit - on and I think the keyword here is 'similar' - how do you know it's a similar situation? How do you know that the Janeway/Voyager fanbase is anything like the one you're comparing us to.

 

[Therin of Andor]

How do you know that the Janeway/Voyager fanbase is anything like the one you're comparing us to.

The "fanbase" is not of one mind. No one can speak for "the fanbase", but demographers and marketing people study groups of people, measure things and make predictions. And sometimes they get it right. Publishers could not survive if they were unable to make predictions of print runs, reactions to cover art, blurbs, floor displays, or if they couldn't compare groups of potential book buyers.

So, Janeway/Voyager fans are not so special or unique, or unpredictable, as some of them might like to think.

 

[Thrawn]

And now, "But Janeway is the key player in Voyager's success; 'Star Trek: Voyager' can survive anything except the loss of Janeway..."

Nope. I don't think Voyager would survive without the rest of the main characters. It simply wouldn't be Voyager.

But it won't be Voyager either without...you got it - JANEWAY!

Ok, so I could survive without Seven, but that isn't the issue.

This is such a load of crap. I'm sorry, Gorf, you make all your arguments respectfully and honestly, but this is just nonsense.

Kes left the show, and that was fine. Seven appeared halfway through, but to many people, when they think of Voyager, they think of Seven and Janeway. Voyager means different things to different people; one could just as easily make the argument that "Voyager isn't Voyager without Kes", as Lynx has, or "Voyager isn't Voyager in the alpha quadrant", as AuntKate has, or "Voyager isn't Voyager without Tuvok", as it wouldn't have been anyway since he's on Titan now, etc etc etc.

Yes, Janeway is the lead of the show and is thus important, but come on. The show was titled "Star Trek: Voyager", not "Star Trek: Captain Janeway", and so in order to technically be "Star Trek: Voyager", all that technically needs to occur is that it somehow be focused around a ship called "Voyager". I mean, no one would expect them to replace the entire main cast, or anything like that, but there is absolutely nothing beyond your own personal opinion to back up anything like "Voyager wouldn't be Voyager without Janeway". It's a completely meaningless sentence.

 

[Marie1]

Out of curiosity, would it be an issue if Lynx had gone to these other boards (whatever or whereever they are) and said: "I think [this] is the greatest thing any ST book has ever done. A lot of people are talking about it at TrekBBS - want to come over and join us?"

As I recall, someone did take this subject to another board.
I took one of the amusing emoticons from the posts that followed it because it was great! But lets just say it did not receive the OP's desired response.


There are to many "" in this thread...

 

[JoeZhang]

There's nothing hidden here. Lynx told us he knew "lots" of Janeway fans from other boards and was informing them of these threads.

Ah right - it's my own lazyiness, I couldn't be bothered to read all of the thread - thanks for clearing that up.

Out of curiosity, would it be an issue if Lynx had gone to these other boards (whatever or whereever they are) and said: "I think [this] is the greatest thing any ST book has ever done. A lot of people are talking about it at TrekBBS - want to come over and join us?"

Well.. one of the narrative threads here is that we seeing the outrage of a large section of the community but if you astroturf an issue, it becomes impossible to determine if an outrage is real or manufactured or how representative it is of any sort of segement of the "community" (which is pretty impossible to do here to start with). The point they are making isn't really important in regards to trying to determine the size of the "outrage" (for wont of a better term).

If we'd have had 100s of posters pop up in the weeks when she died, I would be inclinced to think that there was a sizable community who cared - I just don't get that from this.

I can't help but think that complaints about people coming from other boards likely only apply when said people disagree with the prevailing opinion here, yes?

I couldn't give a flying fuck if she's dead, alive or strapped to a rocketship. My meta-commentary about the recent threads here on this matter and what I think they mean are unrelated to my views on pocket books (I actually don't like their current direction with the books and stopped with Destiny), the authors (some I like, some I think are great, so I think are pretty poor) or Voyager (a show I saw but thought was mediocre at best).

 

[Gorf]

How do you know that the Janeway/Voyager fanbase is anything like the one you're comparing us to.

The "fanbase" is not of one mind. No one can speak for "the fanbase", but demographers and marketing people study groups of people, measure things and make predictions. And sometimes they get it right. Publishers could not survive if they were unable to make predictions of print runs, reactions to cover art, blurbs, floor displays, or if they couldn't compare groups of potential book buyers.

So, Janeway/Voyager fans are not so special or unique, or unpredictable, as some of them might like to think.

Never said we all agree and I didn't say either that we were incredibly unique. I did however ask 'how do you know it's a similar situation? How do you know that the Janeway/Voyager fanbase is anything like the one you're comparing us to?'

I agree that 'demographers and marketing people' study groups of people, but do you have a report from a study that carried out a detailed comparison between the group you mention in your post to the Janeway fanbase today? If so, I'd be very interested in reading it.

Anyway, whether they studied/considered the Janeway/Voyager group is a mystery to me. If they did, and this study was carried out with the Janeway fanbase in mind (you always hear about young men as their favoured demographic), then I'm really consonfused and curious as to how they could get it that wrong.

If they had gotten it right, I believe the Voyager books would have been a success and to the best of my knowledge that's not the case.

Anyway, time for bed so I'll pass the torch to someone else or let you move to other subjects. Either way I'll be happy.

 

[Gorf]

And now, "But Janeway is the key player in Voyager's success; 'Star Trek: Voyager' can survive anything except the loss of Janeway..."

Nope. I don't think Voyager would survive without the rest of the main characters. It simply wouldn't be Voyager.

But it won't be Voyager either without...you got it - JANEWAY!

Ok, so I could survive without Seven, but that isn't the issue.

This is such a load of crap. I'm sorry, Gorf, you make all your arguments respectfully and honestly, but this is just nonsense.

Kes left the show, and that was fine. Seven appeared halfway through, but to many people, when they think of Voyager, they think of Seven and Janeway. Voyager means different things to different people; one could just as easily make the argument that "Voyager isn't Voyager without Kes", as Lynx has, or "Voyager isn't Voyager in the alpha quadrant", as AuntKate has, or "Voyager isn't Voyager without Tuvok", as it wouldn't have been anyway since he's on Titan now, etc etc etc.

Yes, Janeway is the lead of the show and is thus important, but come on. The show was titled "Star Trek: Voyager", not "Star Trek: Captain Janeway", and so in order to technically be "Star Trek: Voyager", all that technically needs to occur is that it somehow be focused around a ship called "Voyager". I mean, no one would expect them to replace the entire main cast, or anything like that, but there is absolutely nothing beyond your own personal opinion to back up anything like "Voyager wouldn't be Voyager without Janeway". It's a completely meaningless sentence.

Ahh...I do believe I said that Voyager wouldn't be Voyager for me without ALL the main characters, which I stated included Janeway.

I never ever said Voyager would be just fine without the rest of the crew (to add humor I added that I'd be fine without Seven and I would from a personal point of view, but I stand by that Voyager wouldn't be Voyager without them all).

Please reread my post.

 

[Thrawn]

How about Kes then? Did Voyager cease being Voyager with Kes gone?

Or Tuvok; Tuvok is gone already. Even without Janeway dying, had Voyager ceased to be Voyager?