Latecomer To This: JANEWAY DIED?!?
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Some good questions here and I will try to answer it as good as I can.
If I were in charge of the relaunch, I would not kill off a main character. Why? Because it would definitely make them very angry and made many of them turn their back on the project.
I would rather play safety here because those who might want to see a main character killed off just for the sake of "drama" aren't actually expecting it (I mean you never imagined that they would kill off Janeway before the book "Before Dishonor" was published, would you?) They might continue to read the books anyway.
If I choose not to kill off main character, I might alienate some fans who like to see that but if I choose to kill off main characters I might alienate the most passionate fans and I don't want to lose them
As for your suggestion to kill off a main character to please the category who want to see that and then "bring back another making sure you guarantee to those in the other category you'll never do it unless you think it's worth it", I'm not sure what you mean. If you mean that killing off Janeway and bring back Neelix, I don't think that those who were angry over Janeway's death would be happy to see neelix come back, it would only be "they could bring back him but not Janeway".
If you did mean killing off Janeway first, stating that she won't come back until there is a good story and then bring her back some time in the future, that action can misfire if the character isn't brought back in a very near future because the statement that "she won't come back" might alienate a lot of fans for good. As if Janeway is brought back 4 years in the future, then the fans who left when she was killed off might think "oh, Janeway is back, ah never mind, the books suck anyway, I write my own fan-fiction now" or "never mind, that Ultimate Voyager on this or that website is much better".
It's easy to lose fans but it's much harder to win the back again.
I can only speak of my own experiences here. There was a time when I was hoping for a Kes come-back in the Voyager relaunch but when I mentioned it from time to time on this website, I was told by Ordover (not Palimeri as I wrongly stated in another post, I mixed them up for some strange reason) that they would only do it if someone came up with a good story. That was in 2001 and now we have 2009 and someone has not yet come up with a good story. But they were quick enough to publish a horrible story in that "Strange New Worlds" book some years ago. So much for that promise.
So I've given up hope about a decent Kes come-back. As it is today, with Christie Golden gone who at least liked the character, I would be horrified if Kes would be brought back because I have a feeling that they would only ruin the character even more.
In fact, the only reason for me to buy some of the Voyager Relaunch books occasionally (which I've done) has been to keep an eye on certain events which could serve as background for my own stories and also as support for it because I have thought that "this relaunch is better than no relaunch at all and Golden is actually a sympathetic author and person".
As you understand, those reasons for me to buy the books are no longer existing. Killing off Janeway was the final straw for me.
Some posters have stated that "Janeway was killed off only because she was female" or "because she was a female captain". I don't think that it's that simple. My theory about this is that Voyager was the least popular of the 24th century shows (sorry Voyagerfans) and the fact that Janeway was somewhat controversial among the fanbase. There are many fans who like her, very ardent fans but also many fans (mostly among the TNG fans and the "Niners") who dislike her. So it could have been like "ah, let's kill off Janeway. Lot of fans hate her and who cares about that crazy bunch who adore her, they are just a small loud-voiced minority. Besides that, it's controversial which would attract some readers who will buy the book".
Due to that, I have a feeling that the Voyager crew are regarded as most expendable among the 24th century Trek characters which is a reason that I really fear for a Kes come-back and no longer want to see it in a book. A character which have already been dumped and destroyed in the TV series would probably be the first one to be killed off or further destroyed.
Because it's a load of crock, a meaningless sop. It was put there by licensing, and there are no plans to follow up on it. When I finished Before Dishonor I was pretty pissed at how poorly Janeway died, but thought they were going somewhere with that final scene. Then, log on to find out it isn't the case - more the fool I. That's where hope died.
Let's not inverse the causality (almost wrote 'casualty'), here. If Janeway returns, it will be because editorial changes its mind that there aren't any good stories to tell about the character, not because they feel Before Dishonor's coda creates any kind of need for a follow-up, since they've already stated otherwise. If the book had lacked the coda but a decision was made to bring back Janeway, she'd be brought back regardless. Nobody would go, "well, shit, I wish we'd written a backdoor now", because this is Star Trek, a universe of possibilities, are there are always methods available. The coda only indicates the probable method to be used if and when Janeway makes a return, nothing else.
Ficititiously yours, Trent Roman
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I can see your points here. The problem is that those in charge of PocketBooks has clearly stated that Janeway is permanently killed off and I suppose that we have to the their word for granted.
I'm aware of the fact about who have the rights to the different characters. Let me just tell you that I'd lost all confidence in CBS and Paramount when Kes was dumped, there was a letter campaign going to have the character re-instated as a regular character again and the reply to the ardent fans who supported and participated in that letter campaign was "Fury", an episode in which Kes was brought back only to be humiliated and finally destroyed (the original idea was to kill off the character). That was a finger against the Kes fans which I haven't forgotten or forgiven.
And don't forget the finger to the J/C fans in "Endgame" as well.
I don't trust "people in suits in offices" because their only goal seem to be making money, sometimes on the expenses of the fans. In this case, I think they have done the wrong calculations. Killing off the main character of Voyager is a bad move which will:
1. Alienate many ardent fans
2. Will definitely not attract the fans of Janeway who have been dissatisfied with the relaunch as it has been the recent years.
3. Will not attract new fans of the TV show who want to read about their favorites and discover that the main character is killed off and most of them missing in the books.
I don't think that the amount of fans who like to see main characters killed off because of some "drama" or those who might find the killing off of Janeway as "constructive" will cover the amount of fans who will turn their backs on the so-called Voyager relaunch. I have a feeling that many of those who support the decision to kill off Janeway only have a casual interest in Voyager and in the long run might prefer other Trek series for different reasons.
And yes, the decision to kill off Janeway just like that has made me lose confidence in those in charge of the novels as well. I thought that they would care more for the characters than Berman and his crew, especially since they have no actors and paychecks to them to care about.
But I was wrong.
"The percentage you're paying is too high-priced
While you're living beyond all your means
And the man in the suit has just bought a new car
From the profit he's made on your dreams"
"Low Spark Of High-Heeled Boys"
Traffic
Ok, Lynx, let's see if I can do this briefly.
1) The character I was referring to that was brought back was Trip Tucker, not anyone on Voyager. The decision to bring him back from the dead was made at about the same time the decision was made to kill Janeway. This indicates to me that THE STORY TAKES PRECEDENCE, not POLITICS - they didn't kill Janeway off to please fans, create controversy, or any other bullshit; they did it because they thought IT WOULD MAKE A BETTER STORY. Why was Trip revived? The story of his death wasn't good enough. Stop looking for ulterior motives; it was done to tell a better story, period.
2) You still have literally no evidence to support any of your claims about fanbase abandonment. Your feelings count for dick-all.
3) Strange New Worlds was never part of canon, or continuity. They were thought experiments. No events in those books were considered permanent or binding. They don't count as evidence. Sorry.
4) Let me once again ask a question - Do you think it is possible for a writer to both love a character and kill them off?
If no - I present Shakespeare, Joss Whedon, and actually pretty much every other author ever as counter-evidence.
If yes - why assume they don't love Janeway just as much as you do?
1) The character I was referring to that was brought back was Trip Tucker, not anyone on Voyager. The decision to bring him back from the dead was made at about the same time the decision was made to kill Janeway. This indicates to me that THE STORY TAKES PRECEDENCE, not POLITICS - they didn't kill Janeway off to please fans, create controversy, or any other bullshit; they did it because they thought IT WOULD MAKE A BETTER STORY. Why was Trip revived? The story of his death wasn't good enough. Stop looking for ulterior motives; it was done to tell a better story, period.
2) You still have literally no evidence to support any of your claims about fanbase abandonment. Your feelings count for dick-all.
3) Strange New Worlds was never part of canon, or continuity. They were thought experiments. No events in those books were considered permanent or binding. They don't count as evidence. Sorry.
4) Let me once again ask a question - Do you think it is possible for a writer to both love a character and kill them off?
If no - I present Shakespeare, Joss Whedon, and actually pretty much every other author ever as counter-evidence.
If yes - why assume they don't love Janeway just as much as you do?
Somebody's gotta say it, so it might as well be me.
I think you guys are really, really, really overestimating the amount of fans you're talking about here. Remember, you're talking a very small percentage (the standard I've heard most often used is 5% or less) of the total viewership that even picks up the books. Even looking at optimistic numbers, with the estimated 4 million in viewership in the last season of Voyager, 5% of that would be 200,000 people. Across the entire United States. 200,000 out of 4 MILLION viewers. And that's being optimistic. Can anyone claim for certain to know what 200 Trek fans will do at any one time, let alone 200,000? Anyone who says yes is lying through their teeth.
We can only speak for ourselves. Yes, there are some that will turn their backs because of decisions made. But there are others that may be more willing to pay attention because of those decisions. Every major development in a story is a risk. There's no way to know whether a risk is going to pay off if you don't take it.
And no, I'm not going to end on the Kirk line. That would be obvious.
Although I do find the notion of "casual" fans versus the rabid die-hard fans debating the subject to be fascinating. Why would a "casual" Voyager fan have enough emotional investment in the show to pick up a TNG book, let alone a VOY novel?
I think you guys are really, really, really overestimating the amount of fans you're talking about here. Remember, you're talking a very small percentage (the standard I've heard most often used is 5% or less) of the total viewership that even picks up the books. Even looking at optimistic numbers, with the estimated 4 million in viewership in the last season of Voyager, 5% of that would be 200,000 people. Across the entire United States. 200,000 out of 4 MILLION viewers. And that's being optimistic. Can anyone claim for certain to know what 200 Trek fans will do at any one time, let alone 200,000? Anyone who says yes is lying through their teeth.
We can only speak for ourselves. Yes, there are some that will turn their backs because of decisions made. But there are others that may be more willing to pay attention because of those decisions. Every major development in a story is a risk. There's no way to know whether a risk is going to pay off if you don't take it.
And no, I'm not going to end on the Kirk line. That would be obvious.
Although I do find the notion of "casual" fans versus the rabid die-hard fans debating the subject to be fascinating. Why would a "casual" Voyager fan have enough emotional investment in the show to pick up a TNG book, let alone a VOY novel?
This has also been mentioned before, but it's worth repeating:
In 2007, there was a big discussion on this very same bulletin board about how the biggest problem with the Trek novels is that they didn't have the balls to really kill off a character. Sure, they'd kill Duffy -- who appeared in all of one episode as a minor character -- or Shakaar -- who only appeared in a couple of DS9 episodes -- or someone like that, but not anybody really important. How could the novels be taken seriously if they wouldn't effect real change on the Star Trek landscape?
These threads were going on after Before Dishonor had been written, but before its release, and several of the professionals posting on this board knew exactly what was going to happen, but couldn't say a word.
So whose wishes are more important? That of the vocal few who think the books should be able to kill off main characters or that of the vocal few who think that main characters should never ever under any circumstances be killed off?
(Trick question: the answer is neither.
)
In 2007, there was a big discussion on this very same bulletin board about how the biggest problem with the Trek novels is that they didn't have the balls to really kill off a character. Sure, they'd kill Duffy -- who appeared in all of one episode as a minor character -- or Shakaar -- who only appeared in a couple of DS9 episodes -- or someone like that, but not anybody really important. How could the novels be taken seriously if they wouldn't effect real change on the Star Trek landscape?
These threads were going on after Before Dishonor had been written, but before its release, and several of the professionals posting on this board knew exactly what was going to happen, but couldn't say a word.
So whose wishes are more important? That of the vocal few who think the books should be able to kill off main characters or that of the vocal few who think that main characters should never ever under any circumstances be killed off?
(Trick question: the answer is neither.
)
I'm sure Lynx hasn't read A Singular Destiny as she doesn't read trek-lit anymore, but how does everyone think she will feel about the casualty list?Not as big as Janeway, but a regular none the less...and "off page" to boot!
I just finished it. When I read that part, my first thought was, "Whoa. I hope Lynx doesn't find out about this." My second thought was, "I am spending far too much time on internet message boards."
I'm sure Lynx hasn't read A Singular Destiny as she doesn't read trek-lit anymore, but how does everyone think she will feel about the casualty list?
I just finished it. When I read that part, my first thought was, "Whoa. I hope Lynx doesn't find out about this." My second thought was, "I am spending far too much time on internet message boards."
I'm embarrassed to say this passed through my head as well.
I imagine my thinking on this is wrong, or I've missed something, but all this mentioning Kes having a comeback - don't Ocampa only have a life-expectancy of about 9 years? That being so, she'd be coming back in 2381-2382 to die as well!
Yeah I mean that is a pretty big hole in their logic.
Huh? They had very similar "deaths". Sisko was consumed by fire and went off to live a non corporeal life with the wormhole alien prophets. Janeway was consumed by a Borg floor and went off to live a non corporeal life with the Q Continuum.
Sisko has already returned in the novels.
Janeway will probably return when a fantastic storyline is pitched and accepted. Maybe it'll take years, maybe it'll never happen.
KRAD said:
she was Captain Shelby of the Exeter before Captain of the Trident. for a whole novel, too. fershame.
Eh, you say something enough times, maybe it'll get through somewhere. And it wasn't just to Lynx. It was to everyone who was talking about this allegedly enormous amount of people who will do such and such because of an editorial decision.
They're usually really disappointed to find out that enormous amount is maybe a dozen people.
Trek Lit is amazing. Period. I hope very much that it will never go away. Star Trek in general gives me great pleasure and I hope my children some day will be able to enjoy it like I have.
I for one will never turn my back on Trek. As far as I am concerned, my wallet will always be open to Trek related material in any form. I really can't get enough of it. If I couldn't read Trek every night before bed, I really am not sure what I would do with myself.
I for one will never turn my back on Trek. As far as I am concerned, my wallet will always be open to Trek related material in any form. I really can't get enough of it. If I couldn't read Trek every night before bed, I really am not sure what I would do with myself.
I still think it's wrong to simply dismiss those who might be angry and upset over killing off Janeway as "some small minority who doesn't count". Maybe it's this small minority who, due to their ardent fandom, are the people who will carry the relaunch forward in the long run, or could have done it if Janeway hadn't been so rudely treated by those in charge.
I'm sure Lynx hasn't read A Singular Destiny as she doesn't read trek-lit anymore, but how does everyone think she will feel about the casualty list?
First of all, Lynx is a he, not a she.
Second, no I haven't read that book.
Happy Day Riot wrote:
It was hinted in some episodes that her lifespan could be prolonged and after becoming an energy being for some years, it could also be assumed that she would return in the same shape as she was when she left. The life-span problem could be solved without a problem.
Thrawn wrote:
1. They brought back Tucker because the story in which he died wasn't good enough. Then they should bring back Kirk, Kes, Data and Janeway too because the episodes and stories in which those characters were killed off or destroyed wasn't good either.
2. I still believe that many fans of Janeway who are reading the books will abandon them. I'm not sure how it will affect the sales but wouldn't it be better if those fans continued to buy the books?
3. I'm happy to see that because some of the stories in those books are not good, to say the least. "Restoration" was horrible.
4. I can't speak for Whedon or Shakespeare but I do think that their stories are somewhat different from Star Trek when it comes to killing off characters. Characters dying in their stories might be an essential part of their stories while it's not necessary to kill off Star Trek characters.
An example: If I write a story about, let's say someone who was at Fort Alamo or on Titanic, it might be expected that the character would die at the end of the story but if I write a book about Spiderman or James Bond it would be weird if I did kill them off since it's expected that they will survive and be the main characters in upcoming books.
I can't speak for those who decided about killing off Janeway but if they liked the character, why did they kill her off instead of coming up with a splendid story about her in the next book?
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