Latecomer To This: JANEWAY DIED?!?

[Mriana]

Janeway was all that #1 was suppose to be and more.

 

[Semah]

Humm... I guess a similar question could be asked of #1 in The Cage. The problem is, the networks decided the public was ready for a woman in command. To me, Janeway was #1 but better. Apparently, some people may still have issues with a woman in command. Maybe things don't improve with time. Maybe some people still aren't ready.

Are you seriously suggesting that the reason that many fans are all right with the decision to kill her of is because she is a woman, that they are uncomfortable with a woman commanding a starship, and that they are therefore satisfied because said woman was therefore killed?

Yes.

Brit

Pull the other one.

 

[Trent Roman]

Don't forget Time and Again, Endgame, Shattered, and Deadlock.

Also, Course Oblivion doesn't really count, those were aliens who thought they were the crew, not the actual crew.

They had the crew's memories, personalities, lived experiences up until the encounter with the demon world. As far as I'm concerned, that makes her (and everybody else) a Janeway, a Paris, and so on. Arguably, they 'were' the characters more than, say, Mirror Universe counterparts of characters are.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Capt_Piett]

Regardless of how Janeway died....are they done using the Borg? Haven't they been in the last 3 or so NG Relaunch books?

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

Regardless of how Janeway died....are they done using the Borg? Haven't they been in the last 3 or so NG Relaunch books?

Read Destiny and get your answer.

Anyway, regardless if you count Course: Oblivion as a Janeway death, that's still, what, five or six times Janeway's died and come back? As opposed to Kirk's two or three? Hey, she's done pretty well for herself.

In life, everyone WILL die. Argue about how it happens, but these characters are not and should not be immortal. If they'll live through everything, you've destroyed a big part of the dramatic tension of putting their lives in jeopardy - they'll make it through, so it's not a big deal. Say what you will about the actual depiction of her death, Janeway would have died eventually - better to go out with a bang than to go quietly, and since it's been about two years since it happened and we're still talking about it, I'd call that a bang. Maybe not the bang some wanted, but a bang.

 

[KRAD]

You ask what episode; I'll tell you "Caretaker", where she destroyed a simple way home to fulfill the spirit of the prime directive.

See, all I got out of that was that neither she nor anyone else on the ship (like the Vulcan security chief who supposedly has years and years of experience) was bright enough to rig a delayed detonation device so that they could get home and blow up the Caretaker's array.....

Regardless of how Janeway died....are they done using the Borg? Haven't they been in the last 3 or so NG Relaunch books?

Spoiler: Destiny trilogy

The Destiny trilogy is the ultimate Borg story, and I'm using "ultimate" in its proper meaning in that phrase.

I'd also like to echo the earlier posts that pointed out that the notion that the editors and authors of Trek fiction don't like women in authority is unsupported by the actual fiction they're producing, which has included Captain Demora Sulu succeeding John Harriman as captain of the Enterprise-B, Captain Kira Nerys of Deep Space 9 (even after Sisko came back in Unity, Kira remains in charge of the station), Captain Ezri Dax of the U.S.S. Aventine, President Nanietta Bacco (the first time a female president has ever been portrayed in Star Trek; prior to A Time for War, a Time for Peace every Federation president seen onscreen, portrayed or mentioned in fiction, or listed in a role-playing game was male -- they were willing to do alien presidents, but never a woman president, as I guess that was too radical), Commander Sonya Gomez of the U.S.S. da Vinci (who was more the main character of S.C.E. than Captain Gold), Admiral Elizabeth Shelby of Starbase Bravo (after being Commander Shelby, first officer of the Excalibur, and then Captain Shelby of the Trident), Commander Christine Vale of the U.S.S. Titan (after being Lieutenant Vale, security chief of the Enterprise-E), the heavy use of Captain Erika Hernandez of the Columbia in Kobayashi Maru and the Destiny trilogy, etc., etc.

 

[Hoshi_Mayweather]

I'd also like to echo the earlier posts that pointed out that the notion that the editors and authors of Trek fiction don't like women in authority is unsupported by the actual fiction they're producing, which has included Captain Demora Sulu succeeding John Harriman as captain of the Enterprise-B, Captain Kira Nerys of Deep Space 9 (even after Sisko came back in Unity, Kira remains in charge of the station), Captain Ezri Dax of the U.S.S. Aventine, President Nanietta Bacco (the first time a female president has ever been portrayed in Star Trek; prior to A Time for War, a Time for Peace every Federation president seen onscreen, portrayed or mentioned in fiction, or listed in a role-playing game was male -- they were willing to do alien presidents, but never a woman president, as I guess that was too radical), Commander Sonya Gomez of the U.S.S. da Vinci (who was more the main character of S.C.E. than Captain Gold), Admiral Elizabeth Shelby of Starbase Bravo (after being Commander Shelby, first officer of the Excalibur, and then Captain Shelby of the Trident), Commander Christine Vale of the U.S.S. Titan (after being Lieutenant Vale, security chief of the Enterprise-E), the heavy use of Captain Erika Hernandez of the Columbia in Kobayashi Maru and the Destiny trilogy, etc., etc.

Thank you for that list!

 

[Therin of Andor]

Re: Catering to the Janeway Fans?

Oh and not some 'seven saves the day' book either. We've had enough of that.

You might have "had enough", but why punish the diehard Seven of Nine fans by denying them books because you've read too many such storylines?

Isn't that the same argument as "Don't kill off Janeway and leave her dead forever"?

 

[Therin of Andor]

In the long-awaited sequel to Articles of the Federation, President Bacco faces her greatest challenge yet when the presidency is contested by none other than the cryogenically preserved brain of Sarah Palin...

"Oh, Andor's a pretty country... whaddaya mean, planet?"

Actually, it's a moon.

Tell Margaret Clark to her face that you think she believes in any of that and she'll laugh so hard they'll be able to hear it in China.

And since both Paula Block and Margaret are members of ST's "first fandom", I'm fairly sure they are both steeped in the Roddenberry vision as permeated through those early fan conventions of the 70s. I'll bet they know all the words to Helen Reddy's hit, "I Am Woman", too.

 

[Sci]

So, once again, some militant Janeway fans are running around accusing the authors and editors at Pocket Books of unscrupulous morals because of their decision to kill Janeway in Before Dishonor. Only this time they're being accused of sexism rather than some vague and ill-defined sadism.

As Keith R.A. DeCandido noted, that's nonsense. If the writers were sexist and afraid of strong, non-objectified women in leadership positions, they wouldn't have written so damn many stories about strong, non-objectified women in leadership positions. "Women aren't interchangeable" is the counter-argument to that? Well of course they aren't.

Each character is unique and different. Janeway is not Kira, and Kira is not Bacco. But you cannot logically claim that the authors and editors are sexist or have a problem with strong female characters if their work is FULL of strong female characters. You want Janeway and not these other characters. Fine -- that's a perfectly valid storytelling desire. But it is NOT valid to accuse the authors and editors of sexism or of being against strong, non-objectified women in leadership positions just because they do not use the particular strong, non-objectified female leader you prefer.

Women are not interchangeable -- but neither are they invalidated just because they are not the specific woman you prefer.

If you don't agree with killing Janeway, that's fine. I've thought about it myself and decided that I don't agree with it -- I think telling a story from the admiralty's POV would have been a good ongoing subplot to the VOY Relaunch, though it would have necessarily led to Janeway not being at the center of the action in the field. But to argue that they did it because of sexism is irrational, dishonest, and arbitrary, and anyone accusing the writers of that ought to apologize.

 

[Steve Roby]

Well, I can honestly say, they are not following Gene's vision, not even in Enterprise.

What does Gene Rodenberry have to do with what happened/happens in Enterprise, he'd already been dead for ten years by the time the show started?

Gene created S.T. That is what he has to do with it. It is not Trek anymore because writers have diverged from his philosophy and vision. I stand by that statement of it not Trek anymore.

Speaking as a Star Trek fan since the early '70s, I stopped believing a long time ago that there was any such thing as Gene's vision or philosophy. What we have to go on is a couple of seasons of TOS, a movie, and a couple of seasons of TNG, and there's no consistent vision being presented there. TOS did episodes that were for American involvement in Vietnam and against it. TNG's first season had the embarrassingly stupid "Angel One" as a commentary on the battle of the sexes.

Roddenberry had nothing to do with Voyager, and I have a hard time believing that a secular humanist philosopher opposed to racism or sexism (assuming for the moment that he really was one) would have been comfortable with certain aspects of that show. For example, Chakotay during the first couple of seasons. He was a new age stereotype of a native American; he represented no real native culture, just a load of new age spiritual silliness, some of which was presented as being real. That would be problematic on the grounds of race (using a stereotype) and secular humanism (spirituality trumping science). A serious feminist might have had issues with certain aspects of the way Kes was portrayed sometimes, but I doubt that replacing her with a statuesque babe in a skintight outfit would be seen as the obvious feminist solution.

So I kinda think Roddenberry is irrelevant in a Voyager discussion.

 

[JD]

So, once again, some militant Janeway fans are running around accusing the authors and editors at Pocket Books of unscrupulous morals because of their decision to kill Janeway in Before Dishonor. Only this time they're being accused of sexism rather than some vague and ill-defined sadism.

As Keith R.A. DeCandido noted, that's nonsense. If the writers were sexist and afraid of strong, non-objectified women in leadership positions, they wouldn't have written so damn many stories about strong, non-objectified women in leadership positions. "Women aren't interchangeable" is the counter-argument to that? Well of course they aren't.

Each character is unique and different. Janeway is not Kira, and Kira is not Bacco. But you cannot logically claim that the authors and editors are sexist or have a problem with strong female characters if their work is FULL of strong female characters. You want Janeway and not these other characters. Fine -- that's a perfectly valid storytelling desire. But it is NOT valid to accuse the authors and editors of sexism or of being against strong, non-objectified women in leadership positions just because they do not use the particular strong, non-objectified female leader you prefer.

Women are not interchangeable -- but neither are they invalidated just because they are not the specific woman you prefer.

If you don't agree with killing Janeway, that's fine. I've thought about it myself and decided that I don't agree with it -- I think telling a story from the admiralty's POV would have been a good ongoing subplot to the VOY Relaunch, though it would have necessarily led to Janeway not being at the center of the action in the field. But to argue that they did it because of sexism is irrational, dishonest, and arbitrary, and anyone accusing the writers of that ought to apologize.

You know, I never realized it before, but I think there might actually be more stong female characters in the books than we got on the shows. And as a guy who likes strong female characters, I would like to applaude the authors and editors for this.

 

[TerriO]

Humm... I guess a similar question could be asked of #1 in The Cage. The problem is, the networks decided the public was ready for a woman in command. To me, Janeway was #1 but better. Apparently, some people may still have issues with a woman in command. Maybe things don't improve with time. Maybe some people still aren't ready.

Are you seriously suggesting that the reason that many fans are all right with the decision to kill her of is because she is a woman, that they are uncomfortable with a woman commanding a starship, and that they are therefore satisfied because said woman was therefore killed?

Yes.

Brit

Okay, my opinion on the decision is absolutely irrelevant here. And I make this statement with the full acknowledgement that I have not kept up with reading the novels at all since I quit the line in 2006. However, Brit, you do realize that nothing in the books could possibly be done without Paramount's approval, I hope? This isn't fanfic. Paramount/CBS/whatever they are this week has to approve whatever is done in the books. And I'm going to take a major bet that they had to approve even the idea of killing Janeway before the book in which it happened was proposed.

So, taking that data into account, is strikes me as what you're suggesting is that Paramount was uncomfortable with a woman commanding a starship? The same production company who actually put her in command of the ship in the first place? Doesn't this seem a little...odd...to you? Do you believe Paramount/CBS was correcting something they saw as a mistake to begin with by allowing this to transpire when they could have stopped it at any point in the process?

And if anyone wants to seriously say I have a problem with strong female characters, they've never read a word of my work, and they've never actually dealt with me. Hell, I had Picard throwing up on camera. Twice. While the female characters ended up saving the day and Picard's ass. Some of my favorite characters to write in Trek were the Female Q, Domenica Corsi, and an early college-age Sarjenka helping to save lives in a mining disaster after only one of the Starfleet officers is even physically capable of attempting to stage a complicated rescue, but needs help that none of his crew can give him.

Don't get me wrong, I know where you're coming from. I was even more pissed off than you are when K'Ehleyr was killed off on TNG, because that was (IMO) TNG's best character. But it had to be done to tell the story that they wanted to tell, even though I hate Worf with the fiery passion of a thousand white-hot suns. (You have no clue how much I want to kill off Worf. No CLUE.) It had to be done to put the characters where they needed to be for the rest of the story to work. You haven't seen the rest of this story yet. Maybe it had to happen to put others in places where they'll make an even bigger difference?

Never attribute to malice what can equally be explained by the desire to tell a good story.

 

[Gaius Polt]

In the long-awaited sequel to Articles of the Federation, President Bacco faces her greatest challenge yet when the presidency is contested by none other than the cryogenically preserved brain of Sarah Palin...

"Oh, Andor's a pretty country... whaddaya mean, planet?"

Actually, it's a moon.

"Thats no moon! It's a SPACE STATION!!!"

 

[ClayinCA]

Humm... I guess a similar question could be asked of #1 in The Cage. The problem is, the networks decided the public was ready for a woman in command. To me, Janeway was #1 but better. Apparently, some people may still have issues with a woman in command. Maybe things don't improve with time. Maybe some people still aren't ready.

Just as a side note, since I didn't see anybody else commenting on this: the idea that "the networks" had any issues whatsoever with "a woman in command" at the time of "The Cage" has been debunked as a Roddenberry-spun myth by numerous sources, most notably Solow & Justman's excellent book Inside Star Trek. The fact of the matter was that "the network" had no problems with a female first officer (just as they, incidentally, had no problems with a racially integrated crew) - but they knew that Majel Barrett was Gene Roddenberry's girlfriend, and that was what they objected to. Roddenberry started the "intolerant networks" story.

See, all I got out of that was that neither she nor anyone else on the ship (like the Vulcan security chief who supposedly has years and years of experience) was bright enough to rig a delayed detonation device so that they could get home and blow up the Caretaker's array.....

That never occurred to me. Then again, this was from the same creative team that had Picard decide to emerge from the Nexus at one of the least opportune moments to defeat Soran, because that was the direction they were determined to force the story into...

Hell, I had Picard throwing up on camera. Twice.

Thank you for that sentence.

Never attribute to malice what can equally be explained by the desire to tell a good story.

And (more seriously) that one. It really ought to be the last word on this whole matter, but I suspect it won't be....

 

[kimc]

^ Well I see what you're saying and I'm also a big nuBSG fan. Now there's a show where characters drop like flies!

For me though this is more than a simple case of character death. Janeway, love her or hate her was the first woman captain on a Trek show. To a lot of us that's a very big deal. The way she was killed of in a TNG novel of all places in order to advance the other characters or whatever the motivation was is a blow. I don't know how else to describe it.

It's a shame some folks don't get that. I'm not saying I'm expecting everyone to fall into complete agreement that she shouldn't have been killed but I guess I'm surprised that people don't realize how it could be more than just another character death to a lot of fans.

I realize this is a touchy subject, but I've been really enjoying this conversation so far, so I hope you'll allow me to turn your argument around for a moment.

Yes, the first woman captain on a Trek show was a very, very big deal. I don't claim to understand that in all of its emotional impact, but I appreciate those for whom that deeply matters. But isn't it just as sexist to say that she's off limits, for twists that would be allowed to happen to other characters, just because she is a woman?

Sure it is just as it's racist to call Sisko off limits. However, dig a little deeper here and compare Sisko and Janeway's fates with those of Kirk and Picard.

Both Kirk and Picard face many difficulties but they ALWAYS triumph. Okay, Kirk was killed in a TNG movie but it was after a good long run plus he was brought back in Shatner's books.

For Sisko and Janeway thought the story is different. They "go to the prophets" or "go to the Q" or whatever but their final "triumph" isn't necessarily a complete one.

When it comes to Trek captains yes it's good to use and abuse them but Trek is not nuBSG or any of the other darker series nor should it be.

 

[kimc]

For me though this is more than a simple case of character death. Janeway, love her or hate her was the first woman captain on a Trek show. To a lot of us that's a very big deal. The way she was killed of in a TNG novel of all places in order to advance the other characters or whatever the motivation was is a blow. I don't know how else to describe it.

It's a shame some folks don't get that. I'm not saying I'm expecting everyone to fall into complete agreement that she shouldn't have been killed but I guess I'm surprised that people don't realize how it could be more than just another character death to a lot of fans.

I see where you're coming from, but on the other hand, being on a TrekLit forum, where many regulars accept the books as much into their personal continuity as the on-screen stuff and Trek Lit having so many strong female characters these days, it's not so far-fetched to assume that Janeway pretty much lost her only/first female captain appeal and became just one of many to us, I guess.

I can see that happening for the TrekLit regulars but for the average Joe on the street the only news is that "they killed Janeway off" and she was the only female captain they would be familiar with.

 

[Lynx]

^ Well I see what you're saying and I'm also a big nuBSG fan. Now there's a show where characters drop like flies!

For me though this is more than a simple case of character death. Janeway, love her or hate her was the first woman captain on a Trek show. To a lot of us that's a very big deal. The way she was killed of in a TNG novel of all places in order to advance the other characters or whatever the motivation was is a blow. I don't know how else to describe it.

It's a shame some folks don't get that. I'm not saying I'm expecting everyone to fall into complete agreement that she shouldn't have been killed but I guess I'm surprised that people don't realize how it could be more than just another character death to a lot of fans.

I realize this is a touchy subject, but I've been really enjoying this conversation so far, so I hope you'll allow me to turn your argument around for a moment.

Yes, the first woman captain on a Trek show was a very, very big deal. I don't claim to understand that in all of its emotional impact, but I appreciate those for whom that deeply matters. But isn't it just as sexist to say that she's off limits, for twists that would be allowed to happen to other characters, just because she is a woman?

Sure it is just as it's racist to call Sisko off limits. However, dig a little deeper here and compare Sisko and Janeway's fates with those of Kirk and Picard.

Both Kirk and Picard face many difficulties but they ALWAYS triumph. Okay, Kirk was killed in a TNG movie but it was after a good long run plus he was brought back in Shatner's books.

For Sisko and Janeway thought the story is different. They "go to the prophets" or "go to the Q" or whatever but their final "triumph" isn't necessarily a complete one.

When it comes to Trek captains yes it's good to use and abuse them but Trek is not nuBSG or any of the other darker series nor should it be.

Not to mention that Sisko hasn't been killed off just like that. There is a chance for Sisko to return but there will be no such chances for Janeway.

 

[TerriO]

For me though this is more than a simple case of character death. Janeway, love her or hate her was the first woman captain on a Trek show. To a lot of us that's a very big deal. The way she was killed of in a TNG novel of all places in order to advance the other characters or whatever the motivation was is a blow. I don't know how else to describe it.

Okay, I'm going to take issue with one thing here. You really should be more specific and say she was the first woman to have a lead role as the captain on a Trek show. Because to say Janeway was the first female captain on a Trek show is just flat-out wrong. Last I checked, Tricia O'Neil's Rachel Garrett beat her to the captain's chair by about 5 years. And that's just the first name off the top of my head. I'm sure Keith could come up with a list.

I grok that it's a blow. Don't get me wrong. K'Ehleyr's death was one helluva blow to me, too. As was Bareil's in DS9 (I still refer to "Life Support" as the cold-blooded murder of Bareil), but in a universe where the most famous of its captains was killed off not once, but twice, why should any of the other captains be treated as immortal? If the death of a beloved character helps tell a really good story, I'll be the first to put the knife to their throat.

It's a shame some folks don't get that. I'm not saying I'm expecting everyone to fall into complete agreement that she shouldn't have been killed but I guess I'm surprised that people don't realize how it could be more than just another character death to a lot of fans.

Oh, I see it. I understand you. I just don't see why any character should be deemed immortal when we've already had both Kirk AND Spock die on screen. Then you're putting back the crutch that every TV series had. If they're in the opening credits, you know any jeopardy plot they're in they're going to get out of. It cheapens the notion of death.

I see where you're coming from, but on the other hand, being on a TrekLit forum, where many regulars accept the books as much into their personal continuity as the on-screen stuff and Trek Lit having so many strong female characters these days, it's not so far-fetched to assume that Janeway pretty much lost her only/first female captain appeal and became just one of many to us, I guess.

I can see that happening for the TrekLit regulars but for the average Joe on the street the only news is that "they killed Janeway off" and she was the only female captain they would be familiar with.

Okay, ignoring TrekLit COMPLETELY: TNG, DS9 and ENT, all had prominent ships with female captains. The idea that Janeway would be the only female captain a casual Trek TV viewer might be familiar with, when Voyager wasn't exactly the best-received of the TNG/DS9/VOY trio, really is pushing credulity a bit, isn't it?

 

[Ktrek]

Not to mention that Sisko hasn't been killed off just like that. There is a chance for Sisko to return but there will be no such chances for Janeway.

Lynx -I don't know how in good conscience you can keep making this statement when it has been shown and proved to you that the writer of Before Dishonor DID leave a back door to bring Janeway back. At this time (I really am at a loss as to how to covey this concept to you) there is no thought of bringing her back but it does not mean she will never return. In the meantime I think you should accept the direction the story is taking with some grace and wait to see where the story will go. Just because you don't care for the direction things have gone in no way means that your opinion is the right one nor the majority.

CBS/Paramount own the rights to the property and it is leased out at this time to Pocket Books. Killing off Janeway did not happen, and could not have happened, without Paula Block's approval at CBS. Do you honestly think that they would have intentionally done such a thing if they felt it might really damage the Voyager franchise and disenfranchise it's fans?

Pocket Books is in the business to sell books and I'm pretty sure that if they felt that killing off Janeway would really slump sales they would not have moved ahead in that direction. It may be that the decision will ultimately prove to have been a bad one but you, nor I, or Pocket Books will not know until we see how the future books come along. However, it just might prove to be the very thing that re-invigorates sales of the Voyager series. We just have to wait and see.

Kevin