Latecomer To This: JANEWAY DIED?!?

[William Leisner]

On top of this... it seems to me that Janeway's fans admire her solely for what she was -- i.e., a female -- and there's little discussion of what she actually did. Once you get past gender, what makes Janeway special? Or interesting? What episode or incident can you point to and say, "This is what makes Janeway worthy of the same regard as a Kirk or a Picard"?

It's just this attitude that would make one wonder if the fact that Janeway is a powerful woman is not only the reason that we love her it is also the reason that you hold her in disregard.

You know, I really wish I was surprised that the first person to write a direct response to my post decided to accuse me of being a misogynist...

 

[Mriana]

Not if you know the Roddenberry philosophy and what we have seen lately is not it.

Enlighten me.

Where in Roddenberry's vision was the sentence that said "it's important that we not appear sexist, so we're only allowed to kill the male captains."

Oh I would love too, but I don't know if you would like it. It ceases to amaze me how people don't do their homework, but maybe they focus only on one philosophy- their own. I discovered it long ago when I was a teenager. He had a very nice interview in The Humanist magazine. So, IF you want enlightened, do a little research on humanism. It is a very wonderful philosophy.

BTW, this was also in Gene's biography by David Alexander, who also did that interview for the AHA. Rod, his son, also mentioned in a video, that he, himself, is a humanist. So, this isn't new news. I suggest you start with the Humanist Manifesto on the American Humanist Association website. Then get back with me. It may take you a little time to do the research, so I'm very willing to wait. Then again, I've spent years on the subject, so I know it well.

 

[JD]

Well, I can honestly say, they are not following Gene's vision, not even in Enterprise.

What does Gene Rodenberry have to do with what happened/happens in Enterprise, he'd already been dead for ten years by the time the show started?

 

[Mriana]

Well, I can honestly say, they are not following Gene's vision, not even in Enterprise.

What does Gene Rodenberry have to do with what happened/happens in Enterprise, he'd already been dead for ten years by the time the show started?

Gene created S.T. That is what he has to do with it. It is not Trek anymore because writers have diverged from his philosophy and vision. I stand by that statement of it not Trek anymore.

 

[JD]

Ok, but why did you specifically point out Enterprise? You made it seem like there was some reason why it should be true to Gene's vision over all of the other series. And since it was the series that was most removed from his influence, I found that rather odd.

As for generalizations, JD, there is nothing wrong with that. Specifics can only become offensive to those it really is not directed towards.

That's nice, but it doesn't change what I was saying. Which is that there are many women in high ranking positions in he books, so obviously noone has a problem with that. And personally, I tend to become rather angery when people start making generalisations about a specific group, because one thing is a never true for a whole group.

 

[Thrawn]

Not if you know the Roddenberry philosophy and what we have seen lately is not it.

Enlighten me.

Where in Roddenberry's vision was the sentence that said "it's important that we not appear sexist, so we're only allowed to kill the male captains."

Oh I would love too, but I don't know if you would like it. It ceases to amaze me how people don't do their homework, but maybe they focus only on one philosophy- their own. I discovered it long ago when I was a teenager. He had a very nice interview in The Humanist magazine. So, IF you want enlightened, do a little research on humanism. It is a very wonderful philosophy.

BTW, this was also in Gene's biography by David Alexander, who also did that interview for the AHA. Rod, his son, also mentioned in a video, that he, himself, is a humanist. So, this isn't new news. I suggest you start with the Humanist Manifesto on the American Humanist Association website. Then get back with me. It may take you a little time to do the research, so I'm very willing to wait. Then again, I've spent years on the subject, so I know it well.

I would absolutely love to read anything on the subject, please link me to anything you feel would educate me. I know very little about secular humanism, though from what I've seen it is a wonderful philosophy.

But why would humanism make killing women captains off limits but not male ones?

 

[Mriana]

The thing is, those other high ranking women are not Janeway. IF she is to be treated equally to Kirk, I say give her a resurrection. Put her up there with Kirk. Besides, Peter David killed Deanna and then brought her back again. Imzadi lives on.

 

[Thrawn]

The thing is, those other high ranking women are not Janeway. IF she is to be treated equally to Kirk, I say give her a resurrection. Put her up there with Kirk. Besides, Peter David killed Deanna and then brought her back again. Imzadi lives on.

So in order for the authors to not be sexist, every female character has to be treated the same way as the very most famous male one?

That doesn't seem fair.

 

[Mriana]

I would absolutely love to read anything on the subject, please link me to anything you feel would educate me. I know very little about secular humanism, though from what I've seen it is a wonderful philosophy.

But why would humanism make killing women captains off limits but not male ones?

www.americanhumanist.org I can give you more links if you like, but that was the one Gene was associated with. I think he died before CFI came about.

As for killing her... IF you are going to make her equal with Kirk, then resurrect her. Kirk had how many resurrections? His death was not final until Generations the movie.

 

[Mriana]

The thing is, those other high ranking women are not Janeway. IF she is to be treated equally to Kirk, I say give her a resurrection. Put her up there with Kirk. Besides, Peter David killed Deanna and then brought her back again. Imzadi lives on.

So in order for the authors to not be sexist, every female character has to be treated the same way as the very most famous male one?

That doesn't seem fair.

Not every. Just the main ones.

 

[Trent Roman]

I've not watched much TOS. Did Kirk die often before Generations?

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Thrawn]

Janeway died pretty frequently too, IIRC. Certainly at least twice.

 

[Mriana]

BTW, the AHA is not just Secular Humanism. It is Religious Humanism too, as well as other forms of Humanism.

 

[Thrawn]

The thing is, those other high ranking women are not Janeway. IF she is to be treated equally to Kirk, I say give her a resurrection. Put her up there with Kirk. Besides, Peter David killed Deanna and then brought her back again. Imzadi lives on.

So in order for the authors to not be sexist, every female character has to be treated the same way as the very most famous male one?

That doesn't seem fair.

Not every. Just the main ones.

Once again, you make a general argument - "the main ones". That would seem to me to indicate all of the female leads, plural. Are you talking about Janeway, or do you include the other female leads of the novel series?

 

[Thrawn]

BTW, the AHA is not just Secular Humanism. It is Religious Humanism too, as well as other forms of Humanism.

Thank you for the clarification; I have the link bookmarked.

 

[Mriana]

Enjoy learning about the philosophy.

 

[Trent Roman]

Janeway died pretty frequently too, IIRC. Certainly at least twice.

The episode where she meets the aliens that prey on people near death, the episode where Kes is living backwards through time, "Year of Hell", "Course: Oblivion", "Timeless"...

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[William Leisner]

I've not watched much TOS. Did Kirk die often before Generations?

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

Just twice, I think. "Amok Time" and "The Enterprise Incident".

 

[LightningStorm]

Don't forget Time and Again, Endgame, Shattered, and Deadlock.

Also, Course Oblivion doesn't really count, those were aliens who thought they were the crew, not the actual crew.

 

[JD]

The thing is, those other high ranking women are not Janeway. IF she is to be treated equally to Kirk, I say give her a resurrection. Put her up there with Kirk. Besides, Peter David killed Deanna and then brought her back again. Imzadi lives on.

Yes, but you were saying you thought they had a problem with women in high ranking positions, you never specified Janeway.