Latecomer To This: JANEWAY DIED?!?

[Capt_Piett]

WTF are the morons in charge of Pocketbooks thinking?!?

Skimming the other thread, it was an idiotorial decision? Let me guess, they consulted Joe Quesada (RE:One More Day) in regards to what would be the most stupid, idiotic thing they could possibly do to a fan favorite character?

Words...fail me. I was planning on finishing my copy of Death in Winter so I could get caught up with the other Next Generation relaunch books.....not even going to bother now. I'll stick to the DS9 Relaunch series (though they seem abysmally slow to come out now) and Voyager books set before they return home. Congrats Pocket Books.....you lost me as a reader for any other ST books or series.

 

[OmahaStar]

Oh well. Your loss. It's certainly not like they've ever killed someone in Trek before.

Except, wasn't there someone in the original series? Oh right ... the whole crew. And someone on TNG? Oh right, the whole ship (in one episode, about a hundred times over). And a space station blowing up and everyone coming back? And the whole crew, minus Kim, who had died already? Right.

But since you stopped watching the first time they "killed" somebody, you know know any of this. So how do you know about Janeway?

 

[Capt_Piett]

I am extremely irritated at the moment, so I will not post the reply which springs immediately into mind. Janeway is one of the main reasons I enjoyed Voyager so much; I have no desire to read a series of novels without her, whatever the reason they killed her off. Should they bring her back, my POV might change and I might go back and read the novels leading up to her death. But until that point, I fail to see any point in doing so. Voyager without Janeway is NOT Voyager.

But my god. She dies fighting the Borg? How many times did we see them fight them in the course of the tv series? And then they have to go an make them a focus of Next Generation Reluanch? Can they not think of ANY new alien races to use? I don't care if they were a "new" breed of Borg of not...the Borg have been done to death. I swear, which alien race they use in a novel must be like that bit on South Park where they show how they decide the plot of Family Guy......

Ugh.

 

[Lynx]

bye, then!

don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out!

That was a rude reply.

Is it forbidden to express anger over the fact that a beloved character has been annihilated for no acceptable reason at all? Must we just sit and accept character destruction, that our favorites from the TV show are wiped out because of some whims of certain authors and "people in charge" of the "franchise"?

And Capt Piett, I agree with you in your statements above.

 

[nx1701g]

I would recommend that you read the book in which she dies in before making such a decision.

Spoiler: Why?

Because she went with LadyQ, which probably means she is not really dead.

 

[Trent Roman]

WTF are the morons in charge of Pocketbooks thinking?!?

Skimming the other thread, it was an idiotorial decision? Let me guess, they consulted Joe Quesada (RE:One More Day) in regards to what would be the most stupid, idiotic thing they could possibly do to a fan favorite character?

It's funny. I was just thinking, observing the outrage in the most recent thread, that if defenders thought that Lynx and others were being insulting with regards to editorial decisions, they should pop into Sci-Fi & Fantasy, click any random thread about comic books and see what fans have to say about those in charge there.

Welcome to the new low. Bring pressure suits.

I would recommend that you read the book in which she dies in before making such a decision.

Spoiler: Why?

Because she went with LadyQ, which probably means she is not really dead.

Which, as it turns out, was a change required by Licensing of which there are no plans to follow up on. So for all intents and purposes, meaningless. (Yes, it provides an 'out' to bring her back... but if there's no intent behind it, then really any resurrection plot could serve the same purpose if and when a decision to bring Janeway back is made.)

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Thrawn]

Ok, Capt_Piett; let's clear up a few things here.

1) It's true, she doesn't "die", per se; she gets carried off by Lady Q at the end of the book, to Places Unknown. However, the current editors have made clear they will not be bringing her back as a mortal human; she is, to the universe, dead for the forseeable future, but it would certainly be possible to bring her back some day. It just won't be any day for at least the next few years.

2) No, you don't have to read the book where she dies to have an opinion, and anyone who tells you so is being ornery. If the death of one character is enough to drive you out of Trek Literature permanently, that's your business; it's an opinion I don't understand, but it won't make it better just by reading the book where it does happen.

3) I would, however, ask you to give the books one more chance, for a couple of reasons. You don't have to agree, I'm just suggesting. First, the Borg are more interesting this time around than you'd expect. The amazon.com reviews of the Destiny trilogy, in particular, are startlingly high, and you could jump to the Destiny trilogy right away if you want to give yourself one "this will make it or break it" last try at modern Trek Lit. If you don't, I understand, I'm just saying - this is the pinnacle of what's available now, and if you want to see if you're really done with the universe, it's the one to try. It takes place after Janeway dies, so you get to see hints of how the novel line will be handling that particular event, going forward. And let me tell you, Destiny is gobsmackingly brilliant - a different take on the Borg, and an enormous epic that truly reaffirms Star Trek's guiding philosophy on a scale never before seen in any screen or print Trek work. It's bleeding genius.

4) If that doesn't convince you, there's a Voyager novel coming out in April titled Full Circle, which covers the two years before Janeway's death, as well as the crew's reactions to the death, where Voyager is through the events of the Destiny trilogy, and how those characters will go forward into the future. It's being handled by a fantastic author, a true fan of Voyager, and it's probably almost as long as three of the previous Relaunch books put together. I have faith that Janeway's death will be handled with sensitivity and grace. This book is the reason Janeway was killed, and if you're open minded enough to see why it was done, this would be the book to read.

If neither of those options works for you: great. I won't make fun of you or be angry at you, and I'm sorry the books are going in a direction you don't like. This was certainly a controversial step. But it was a step taken to try and write the best stories possible, a decision made out of the deepest love for the franchise and a desire to take it into new, very human and very real directions. You may disagree, but I would request that you refrain from calling the editors or authors "idiots" or "morons" or impugning their motives. They're in this because they love the show and the characters, and they would not have killed off a character if they didn't feel the story possibilities it presented were absolutely worth the sacrifice. You may not imagine what those possibilities are, but I hope you're at least willing to wait until April to find out.

On the other hand, if you've already decided this is definitely enough to drive you away from TrekLit permanently, you should also be aware that this board has literally no influence on future novels, so complaining about the change will serve effectively no purpose whatsoever. It's a decision that has been made, and will be held to for at least as long as Clark is in charge of the Trek line no matter how much you wish it weren't. We just closed one enormous, pages long thread full of some very bitter arguing about this, and I sincerely hope we won't go down that road again, as it's so very useless to everyone.

 

[Marcus Porcius Cato]

Ok; let's clear up a few things here.



4) If that doesn't convince you, there's a Voyager novel coming out in April titled Full Circle, which covers both the two years before Janeway's death, as well as the crew's reactions to the death, where Voyager is through the events of the Destiny trilogy, and how those characters will go forward into the future. It's being handled by a fantastic author, a true fan of Voyager, and it's probably almost as long as three of the previous Relaunch books put together. I have faith that Janeway's death will be handled with sensitivity and grace. This book is the reason Janeway was killed, and if you're open minded enough to see why it was done, this would be the book to read.

If neither of those options works for you; great, I'm sorry the books are going in a direction you don't like. This was certainly a controversial step. But it was a step taken to try and write the best stories possible, a decision made out of the deepest love for the franchise and a desire to take it into new, very human and very real directions. You may disagree, but I would request that you refrain from calling the editors or authors "idiots" or impugning their motives. They're in this because they love the show and the characters, and they would not have killed off a character if they didn't feel the story possibilities it presented were absolutely worth the sacrifice. You may not imagine what those possibilities are, but I hope you're at least willing to wait until April to find out.

If you are actually gone from TrekLit completely, also be aware that this board has literally no influence on future novels, so complaining about the change will serve effectively no purpose whatsoever. I hope this thread doesn't become as negative as the last one about this topic, because it really does no good. It's a decision that has been made, and will be held to for at least as long as Clark is in charge of the Trek line.

I would believe all of that if it was not Peter David who wrote the awful bloody mess.

 

[Thrawn]

I would believe all of that if it was not Peter David who wrote the awful bloody mess.

Peter David was contracted by Margaret Clark to write the book, and was told he was to kill off Janeway in it. He had literally nothing to do with that decision whatsoever, and has expressed many times his surprise at being asked to write it.

And yes, it's certainly debatable whether or not he wrote her sendoff well; I personally thought Janeway was one of the highlights of the novel, but I can see how you'd think otherwise. If it helps any, Full Circle, the novel that will be exploring her death from Voyager's perspective, was edited by Marco Palmieri and not Margaret Clark. He's responsible for Vanguard, Titan, and the Deep Space Nine relaunch, all of which have gone off with hardly a hitch so far, and it was a collaborative decision between Palmieri and Clark to kill Janeway off. In many ways, Full Circle is the motivation for that choice, not Before Dishonor.

Was it a poor editorial choice to have Peter David be the one to kill her? Possibly. Maybe even probably. But we still haven't seen the book that was designed to tell the Voyager crew's story yet, and that to me will be the real judge.

Again, you're free to disagree, but I'd encourage you to at least wait for reviews from similarly minded fans before you jump on the train of bitterness and anger.

 

[Trent Roman]

First, the Borg are more interesting this time around than you'd expect.

Debatable. I've not yet read the Destiny trilogy, but thus far the Borg are far less interesting to me than they've ever been. In the name of making the Borg scary, I thought Resistance made them into pretty much any standard badguy. Then Before Dishonour--the Borg to which Janeway actually dies, and thus to which Captain Piett is referring to despite not having read the book--made them into gross, oversized charicatures, I felt, lacking only assimilation tubules beneath their noses to twirl villanously. In my opinion, only Greater Than The Sum has actually fulfilled the stated goal of making the Borg seem threatening again, and then only by keeping them at a distance, tapping back into the sense of unknowable, implacable menace that gave the Borg their unique allure in the first place.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Thrawn]

Is it forbidden to express anger over the fact that a beloved character has been annihilated for no acceptable reason at all? Must we just sit and accept character destruction, that our favorites from the TV show are wiped out because of some whims of certain authors and "people in charge" of the "franchise"?

In order:

- No, it isn't forbidden to express anger. It's simply unpleasant to read disrespect of something we enjoy deeply. I hope you find my reply this time respectful, even if you disagree, and I hope there isn't any leftover conflict between us from the previous thread.

- The character was killed, not annihilated, for reasons that the editors felt were worth it, and we haven't actually seen what those reasons are yet. It is a false statement to say "no acceptable reason at all" when the reason hasn't yet been presented. You can say "for no acceptable reason I can imagine", and I will have no objections.

- You must not sit and accept anything, just be aware that this messageboard has no influence on the future of the line. Only sales do. So your best tactic, unless you go with what Steve Roby suggested in the other thread, is to simply not buy the books. Anything further merely spreads useless acrimony, in my opinion. You can feel free to post anything you like, I'm not trying to shut you up or shut you down, I'm just informing you it's likely quite useless, as it would be if I disagreed with any other major creative decision and tried to change it by similar methods.

- No authors had anything to do with the decision.

- It wasn't a whim, it was debated and thought about for months before the decision was made. And again, we haven't yet seen the reasons for the decision.

- They actually are in charge of the franchise; it's a fact. Your sarcasm quotes are wasted.

 

[Thrawn]

First, the Borg are more interesting this time around than you'd expect.

Debatable. I've not yet read the Destiny trilogy, but thus far the Borg are far less interesting to me than they've ever been. In the name of making the Borg scary, I thought Resistance made them into pretty much any standard badguy. Then Before Dishonour--the Borg to which Janeway actually dies, and thus to which Captain Piett is referring to despite not having read the book--made them into gross, oversized charicatures, I felt, lacking only assimilation tubules beneath their noses to twirl villanously. In my opinion, only Greater Than The Sum has actually fulfilled the stated goal of making the Borg seem threatening again, and then only by keeping them at a distance, tapping back into the sense of unknowable, implacable menace that gave the Borg their unique allure in the first place.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

And you'll notice I only referred to Destiny in my post. I agree that Resistance and Before Dishonor had strange and not necessarily interesting takes on the Borg, but Destiny is another animal entirely. If you thought GTTS worked, Destiny's Borg will rock you.

I would agree that the editorial decisions around the TNG post-Nemesis relaunch pretty much sucked. Bringing the Borg back for a couple of fairly pointless one-off stories, centering the climax of the first three new novels around the death of a character from another franchise entirely, and not coordinating characterization between the different authors produced a set of books that could best be described as "uneven". However, even the best creative minds make a few missteps, and it would appear based on the huge amounts of author communication going forward and Clark's current plans for a much more unified 24th century novel line that she's learned her lesson on this one. It was the first time she'd handled an ongoing story in the main continuity, and it showed, but I would suspect we'll be getting much higher quality offerings moving forward.

Certainly Destiny blows the earlier TNG post-Nemesis books completely out of the water. I wouldn't at all recommend anyone read Before Dishonor as an example of Treklit at its best or at its most representative. I loved it, as a standalone, but it absolutely had all those problems I mentioned above, as well as being written in an irreverent manner that put many people off. Destiny, however, is just goddamn great, and more than makes up for the shortcomings of the earlier Trek post-Nemesis works, I would say, by almost anyone's standards.

 

[Trent Roman]

True. But since the Borg of Destiny are not the Borg the OP was complaining about, but the rogue cube (and offshoots) of Resistance/Before Dishonor/Greater than the Sum, I felt the caveat should be raised.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Thrawn]

Fair enough.

 

[Capt_Piett]

I'm not gone from TrekLit completely, as I said I will keep reading the DS9 Relaunch books (if they ever get the bloody things back on anything resembling a release schedule) as well as novels set in the past before Voyager returns home. I really wish I understood what the trend writers have these days, not just here by in comics as well with killing of main characters or doing things to main characters to "shock" readers. We deal with death on an every freaking day basis; I read for escapism. I don't really want to have to confront a pointless death of a character I really like because someone thought it was a good idea at the time.

Of course, given the glacially slow pace that ANY Voyager relaunch books have been coming out (how long ago did Spirit Walk come out?), the status quo could change before another book after Full Circle comes out. I just think it's not very bright for them to say she will never come back in human form, because as Trek characters have shown time and time again there's ALWAYS a way back.

"Idiotorial" I generally reserve as a term for comic editors who allow stupid things to occur; i.e. Joe Quesada's hair brained idea to "erase" Mary Jane and Peter Parker's marriage from history because he has some sort of fanboy fetish for single Peter Parker stories; never mind there were years and years and YEARS of them back in the day BEFORE they got married. Perhaps in this case the term may have been used a bit harshly, but still, I stand by my opinion: Without Janeway, There IS no Voyager.

It sounds like Paramount, if they forced the inclusion of the scene at the end where Janeway is talking to Lady Q (And why Lady Q and not Q himself?), it sounds like they were not 100% comfortable with the idea of killing her off for good.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I'm having deja vu. Oops. Was that humour and wordplay?

I'm not gone from TrekLit completely, as I said I will keep reading the DS9 Relaunch books...

until they kill someone...?

 

[Thrawn]

The book schedule over the last couple years for DS9 and VOY has been a bit uneven, for a few reasons.

Deep Space Nine was to continue with Fearful Symmetry a year before it did; however, Marco Palmieri, the editor of that line at the time, was unsatisfied with the original author's work and so had another author come in to redo it. He gives writers a lot of creative freedom, and so allowed her to restructure the planned story a lot, producing what was to be a much longer story, one that no longer could fit in one book. So, they decided to have the new author also write the next book in the series, which would come out later. There are two DS9 relaunch books this year, in August and September, and that should be more indicative of the pace of the series in the future. One finishes the arc begun in Warpath and continued in Fearful Symmetry, the other is a more interesting book that looks at Cardassian society through the TV series and the relaunch.

Voyager was being handled by John Ordover (editor) and Christie Golden (writer), and both of them left Trek around the same time. As she'd had some pretty specific ideas of where it was going, it took them a while to decide on a new editorial direction and author that they felt would stand up to the rest of the publishing schedule. Now that they have, and Destiny has been released, Voyager will be forging ahead along with the concurrent TNG and Titan series. There is already one book after Full Circle, titled Unworthy, planned for 2009, as well as another crossover called the Typhon Pact that will involve all three series in 2010.

So, no, the status quo will not change for at least a couple of years, and at least two major VOY novels + a crossover. And again, they haven't said she never will return to life, they've said she won't be for the foreseeable future. They killed her off to explore story possibilities that haven't even yet been published; they certainly won't be altering their decision any time soon.

Now, as for your complaint that you read for escapism and not reality - that's a valid one, and I understand completely. I would point out, though, that Trek has killed off several characters in the past, and I don't really understand why if Kirk dying in Generations or Data dying in Nemesis wasn't enough to drive you away from Trek, that this is. Both were exactly the same situation - they left ins for those characters to return again if that story was one that future owners of the Trek franchise wanted to tell (Nexus, B4, and now Lady Q), but had no plans to bring the character back themselves.

Also, for the record, the same editor (Margaret Clark) that killed off Janeway also brought back Trip Tucker from an onscreen death she felt was not told properly, and he is alive and well in the Enterprise post-finale novels. It's about storytelling possibilities, not about shock value.

And finally, in a great many ways, the Voyager novels would've basically been proceeding forward without Janeway anyway, as she was no longer in command of the ship, so finding excuses for her to be involved in every story would've become increasingly implausible. I really think Voyager's real story ended with the crew's return; after that, it's a different story with some of the same characters by default, and Janeway was already going to play a much diminished role. (Which is by no means a reason to kill her off; again, we haven't seen what those reasons were yet. I just think saying "Voyager isn't Voyager without Janeway" is a little simplistic, as it was kind of "Voyager without Janeway" already.)

 

[Lynx]

Is it forbidden to express anger over the fact that a beloved character has been annihilated for no acceptable reason at all? Must we just sit and accept character destruction, that our favorites from the TV show are wiped out because of some whims of certain authors and "people in charge" of the "franchise"?

In order:

- No, it isn't forbidden to express anger. It's simply unpleasant to read disrespect of something we enjoy deeply. I hope you find my reply this time respectful, even if you disagree, and I hope there isn't any leftover conflict between us from the previous thread.

- The character was killed, not annihilated, for reasons that the editors felt were worth it, and we haven't actually seen what those reasons are yet. It is a false statement to say "no acceptable reason at all" when the reason hasn't yet been presented. You can say "for no acceptable reason I can imagine", and I will have no objections.

- You must not sit and accept anything, just be aware that this messageboard has no influence on the future of the line. Only sales do. So your best tactic, unless you go with what Steve Roby suggested in the other thread, is to simply not buy the books. Anything further merely spreads useless acrimony, in my opinion. You can feel free to post anything you like, I'm not trying to shut you up or shut you down, I'm just informing you it's likely quite useless, as it would be if I disagreed with any other major creative decision and tried to change it by similar methods.

- No authors had anything to do with the decision.

- It wasn't a whim, it was debated and thought about for months before the decision was made. And again, we haven't yet seen the reasons for the decision.

- They actually are in charge of the franchise; it's a fact. Your sarcasm quotes are wasted.

Don't worry, I'm not the one who holds grudges against people just because we happen to disagree. It's only if they continue with personal comments that I can get a bit annoyed and in your case it hasn't been the fact. On the contrary, you have actually written some well-thought and well-written comments in ths case which have been worth considering even if I do disagree with some of your statements

I can agree about your comments about my "no acceptable reason" statement. I should have written that "I find the reasons for killing off Janeway non-acceptable".

As for not buying the books as a protest, well that's exactly what I'm gonna do. Which is a pity since I've always liked the Star Trek books, well most of them actually and I did have some hopes and expectations for the Voyager relaunch even if there were some scenarios which weren't exactly what I wanted. I could live with those but it's harder for me to accept the killing off of Janeway.

OK, protesting on this forum (and on other forums as well) won't help much but if no one did write a single protest and expressed their dislike, everyone from those involved with Pocket Books who do visit this site to the casual book fan should think that "everything is OK, everyone likes or have accepted the killing of of Janeway, no one is against it since no one is protesting so they did the right thing after all".

If killing off Janeway wasn't a whim which simply was accepted by those in charge, then it is a cold-hearted decision from those in charge despite the fact that they must know that many fans will be sad and upset over it. I don't know which is worse.

And yes, my sarcasm quotes might be wasted but I'm not that happy with how the official Star Trek franchise is run.

 

[Lynx]

I'm having deja vu. Oops. Was that humour and wordplay?

I'm not gone from TrekLit completely, as I said I will keep reading the DS9 Relaunch books...

until they kill someone...?

In that case, I would suggest that you listen to this song. It's good!

"When you see familiar faces
But you don't remember where they're from
Could you be wrong?

When you've been particular places
That you know you've never been before
Can you be sure?

'Cause you know this has happened before
And you know that this moment in time is for real
And you know when you feel deja-vu

Feel like I've been here before
Feel like I've been here before
Feel like I've been here before
Feel like I've been here before

Ever had a conversation
That you realise you've had before
Isn't it strange

Have you ever talked to someone
And you feel you know what's coming next
It feels pre-arranged

'Cause you know that you've heard it before
And you feel that this moment in time is surreal
'Cause you know when you feel deja-vu"

"Deja Vu"
Iron Maiden

 

[Lynx]

.
And finally, in a great many ways, the Voyager novels would've basically been proceeding forward without Janeway anyway, as she was no longer in command of the ship, so finding excuses for her to be involved in every story would've become increasingly implausible. I really think Voyager's real story ended with the crew's return; after that, it's a different story with some of the same characters by default, and Janeway was already going to play a much diminished role. (Which is by no means a reason to kill her off; again, we haven't seen what those reasons were yet. I just think saying "Voyager isn't Voyager without Janeway" is a little simplistic, as it was kind of "Voyager without Janeway" already.)

But in that case, was it necessary to kill off the character. They could have settled for a solution in which she would occur in some books or even better, they could have found a way to bring her back in charge of the ship just like they did with Admiral Kirk in the TOS movies.

The TOS movies without Kirk (or Spock, McCoy, Scotty and the others)wouldn't have been neither real TOS movies nor the success they actually was. The same can be said about "Voyager books" without the main characters.