Last Classic Who Story you watched
- Thread starter Pindar
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Honestly, the Eccleston/Tennant design is my personal, definitive version of it. Its never been bettered since, and quite honestly, the white original, especially in the '80's, looks... well, how can I put it? Fake, as is in, unrealistic that it'd have endured centuries of adventures as it looked. Whereas the McGann TARDIS looks like a home, which is a valid interpretation. After all, it IS the Doctor's home.
I also love the wooden control room from Hinchcliffe's last year. That was so awesome.
Like it or not, its part of the Doctor's central moral philosophy. That human ARE one of the greatest of races. And its always been part of the character, certainly since the Second. What the Fourth says in Ark in Space is a mere confirmation of the fact. Making him half-human relegates the Doctor's notion of humanity as hardly objectionable, therefore dishonest.
Well, realism has never really been a consideration in Doctor Who, has it? I just like the aesthetic, the white, roundelled walls and the hexagonal console with controls that actually look like controls rather than a half-melted junkpile. I mean, for my first dozen or so years as a Who fan, that simply was what the TARDIS interior looked like, except in series 14.
That's a fair point. It's not so much the larger set I didn't like -- I just found the retro, faux-Victorian console design a bit silly. He wasn't H.G. Wells's Time Traveller, he was a denizen of the most advanced civilization in the universe. Okay, I get the logic from the modern series that that selfsame technology lets him make the "desktop theme" whatever he wants, but I prefer the console to look futuristic.
I think the current, Capaldi-era design does a great job of making the console room look like a home while still keeping it clean and high-tech in the way I like. I have a fondness for the simplicity of the classic console room, but the current design is probably the best it's ever had.
As you can guess, I wasn't crazy about it. Again, I didn't mind the overall set, I just didn't like how basic the console was. I mean, a shaving mirror instead of a time rotor? Come on, give me blinky lights and buttons and bits that move up and down!
Of course, that's the whole reason they built a new set that year, as well as the reason that they'd had no TARDIS interior shots at all in Tom Baker's first season. The prop and effects departments kept insisting the console was the other guys' responsibility and it led to all sorts of union disputes, so Hinchcliffe just avoided the issue by avoiding interiors altogether in his first season and building a non-mechanical console in his third.
Which made for a weird experience for folks like me whose exposure to the series began with PBS showing the Tom Baker seasons in the '80s. With one complete serial aired per Saturday night (cut into "movie" form), starting with "Robot," it was seven weeks before I first got a look at what was inside that blue box. (Of course, the beginning of "Robot" is itself a pretty weird introduction to the series...)
Yes, he admires humanity, but he never says there are no other species in the universe worthy of comparable praise. Indeed, we've seen there are other species that he holds in quite high regard, including the Silurians/Homo reptilia, the Ice Warriors, the Ood, and others. That's the issue. With trillions of sentient species in the universe, past, present, and future, it's unreasonable and frankly quite racist to think that humans are the one and only species worthy of his respect. So it makes sense that there'd be some reason why, out of all his most admired species, he chooses to spend most of his time with humans instead of one of the others -- even though humans are also responsible for so many of the atrocities he's fought against and he often gets quite angry at us. And it would certainly help explain that relationship -- his continued forgiveness no matter how we misbehave -- if we were family to him.
I'm not saying it's the only or the best explanation for that... just that, if the McGann movie had spawned a series and the Doctor being half-human had ended up becoming canonical, it would've made sense to me. It wouldn't have been my preferred choice, no, but if it had happened, I could've lived with it because it would've made a good explanation for that specific question.
...as someone who finds the 7th Doctor's era to be the weakest in Classic Who I can't say I don't get perverse pleasure from seeing him die of medical malpractice instead of some grand finale
See, I really enjoyed the 7th Doctor stories when I rewatched them recently, even his first season where he was supposedly clownish instead of shrewd and calculating. It had been decades since I'd seen them last, and I had read so many people hating on them that I suppose I had assimilated that opinion by osmosis. But I was impressed with pretty much every one of them, even "Time and the Rani" wasn't the apocalypse.
I know that Mel tends to be the 'forgotten companion' and Peri is seen as Six's 'main' companion, but I found Mel to be a better companion than Peri even despite the shrieking, because at least she was proactive and made things happen in the story, whereas Peri never seemed to actually do anything except give the dads something to look at (which as a wee gay boy was utterly irrelevant to me).
And then Ace was a breath of fresh air. She had her own personality, her own intelligence, her own backstory, got into her own problems and back out of them again. I don't think she screamed once. I can see the sense in some people's complaints that she was a fundamentally misconceived character - a foul-mouthed teenage hooligan on a TV show where people couldn't even say 'damn' because of BBC propriety, hence all the nonsensical insults and mangled swear words. But from being nothing but a brat in "Dragonfire" to the moment at the end of "Survival" where she thinks the Doctor is dead and picks up his umbrella and hat, becoming the Doctor herself if only for a moment - I think she had earned that over her two years. In that sense she was kind of a precursor to Clara, I suppose.
As for the Doctor himself in his seventh incarnation, I don't think the development over his tenure was such a hard switch. He's always had both aspects to his character - the bumbling clown and the calculating mastermind. But what I liked was that his stories attempted to actually be about something, not just a way to fill time. There were themes and metaphors and motifs, again not unlike the modern series.
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Seasons 25 and 26 were easily, easily the best of the show in the '80's. Not only did they have an ingenius arc tying them together, but the stories are more respectful of their audience, they're challenging for the whole family and are, indeed, about something. The Doctor's also cooler than he's been since season 14.
However... season 24 might just be the single worst season of Doctor Who, ever. It feels like no one cares at this point, and the show really became what its critics always like to call it: a kids' show. Seriously, the show has never been closer to matching that mentality in all its history than in that instance. Sure, most of season 15 and 17 was bad, 18 is way too serious and 19-23 lack heart, but they all at least one, one great story, or at least halfway good one. And the tone wasn't laughably benign, either. It also doesn't help in the slightest, that it contains Time & the Rani, which in turn contains the single worst performance by a new Doctor.
In any case, at least 25 and 26 showed off OldWho in some nice fashion, going out with a semi-bang rather than an outright whimper.
However... season 24 might just be the single worst season of Doctor Who, ever. It feels like no one cares at this point, and the show really became what its critics always like to call it: a kids' show. Seriously, the show has never been closer to matching that mentality in all its history than in that instance. Sure, most of season 15 and 17 was bad, 18 is way too serious and 19-23 lack heart, but they all at least one, one great story, or at least halfway good one. And the tone wasn't laughably benign, either. It also doesn't help in the slightest, that it contains Time & the Rani, which in turn contains the single worst performance by a new Doctor.
In any case, at least 25 and 26 showed off OldWho in some nice fashion, going out with a semi-bang rather than an outright whimper.
I hate the Hinchcliffe Cult and the Sarah Jane/Lis Sladen Cult. An insult to all those other people who have worked on DW.
Not really. Their era is just one that still holds up enormously well. The Hartnell/Troughton eras are not completed, thus fewer people know about them, and everyone has been singing praises for the Letts era for its consistency and tone, as well as essentially breathing a second life to the show. I think that is spectacularly clear.
The controversy really comes in with the Williams era, which basically allowed Tom Baker to do whatever he wanted, and the JNT era, which brought the show down, eventually.
The controversy really comes in with the Williams era, which basically allowed Tom Baker to do whatever he wanted, and the JNT era, which brought the show down, eventually.
The villain, Graham Crowden, was almost the fourth Doctor. But he would only commit to one year, so they keep looking.
The book has a wonderfully funny account of Soldeed's back story (he's not a scientist. He was just the closest thing Skonnos had left after the military had shot all the scientists, for being a bit too smart-alec).
Yeah it was a totally different time. In the UK we regularly have a show "It was alright in the.." which shows clips of shows in different decades, showing things that were acceptable on TV in say the 1970's, but would shock people today.
I actually managed to pick up Shada recently - such a waste, a fully completed story would have been awesome.
Well, my favorite 7th Doctor story is Delta & the Bannerman, but besides that Season 24 is pretty bad. That said, I hate Andrew Cartmel as a creative force (I am so glad that NuWho invalidated his ridiculous "masterplan") and if the Season 24 7th Doctor had stuck around instead of becoming a sociopath I'd like the 7th Doctor's era a lot more. As it is, the 7th Doctor's era has my most hated Doctor Who story of all time (Classic or NuWho) with The Greatest Show in the Galaxy, and just wasn't very good. It had a few good stories after the 7th Doctor went full villain (I like Silver Nemesis, Remembrance of the Daleks, Battlefield and Survival) but even outside TGSitG I don't consider any 6th Doctor story to be as bad as Ghost Light or Curse of Fenric.
As for Doctor Who in the 80s, Season 22 is (in my opinion) the best 80s season with Season 23 a close second. To be fair, I still have a lot of seasons 17-19 and 21 to see, so one of them could theoretically dethrone Season 23 for second place (although that's doubtful, since the 4th Doctor was pretty bad in the 80s and the 5th, while a good Doctor, always seems to have half a season of good and half a season of mediocre to bad stories, and Season 23, while not spectacular, had only one story I consider mediocre.
I will give the 7th Doctor's era this: Ace is one of the best Classic Who companions. With a Doctor that acted like a friend or teacher to her instead of a psychological torturer with less emotion then a Vulcan, she could have been brilliant. As it is she was a very good companion even when the stories she was in weren't, and I've rarely had as much sympathy for a companion then watching her get constantly tortured by the 7th Doctor. Not my favorite overall companion (no one beats Amy or the Amy/Rory combination for me), but easily a top 3 overall Doctor Who companion.
Back on topic: Fuck Frontier in Space. This story is fucking terrible. The whole damn story is just The Doctor and Jo getting captured, escaping, and recaptured to the point of frustration. Its like someone who hates Classic Who's tendency to have The Doctor captured and wrote a story specifically to draw attention to that cliche. NOTHING IS HAPPENING. I'm losing my mind having to listen to boring Earth president and her obviously evil general. I have not been so simultaneously bored and frustrated by Classic Who since I tried to get through City of Death. That story I had to drop because I hated it so much. At least this story has The Master. But, The Master fonly shows up over half way through episode 3. Even then, he does nothing but talk to the idiot president.
Still, he is the only redeeming feature of this whole shit show called Frontier in Space. Especially when he starts interacting with Jo. He's so good in the role (even if Ainley is my favorite Master, Delgado is still great) that he can make even a terrible story somewhat entertaining, at least when he's on screen. So, I've decided I'm just skimming episodes 4-6, watching Delgado's parts and skipping every second he's not on screen. So I get his last performance, without suffering any more through such a terrible story.
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Really Delta & the Bannerman is your favourite and you consider Curse of Fenric the worst?, granted the idea of The Looms may be a bit out there, but Cartmel had a good point in thinking the mystery of the character had entirely disappeared and sought to address that, yes the 7th doctor is manipulative but I never minded that and think others would agree with me.
Agreed
Are we watching the same show? Because besides the manipulation in Curse of Fenric, their was never any kind of psychological torture just a kind of teacher/student role with a big dose of manipulation...
What about Ghostlight?
Ghostlight is much the same, manipulation aimed at helping Ace. It simply isn't psychological torture as Kirk555 describes it as.
Talking of Graham Crowden, I always knew him from Porridge playing Slade Prison's grumpy doctor, but I'm been watching him in Waiting for God recently a faboulous 90's sitcom about ttwo rebellious residents in a retirement home.
Finished The Mutants. As much as I liked the UNIT stories, it's good to have the occasional Third Doctor in space story. The strange thing is, it never got familiar, and the stuff I thought was coming up didn't (I was probably remembering Colony in Space). Fairly typical 1970s Doctor Who but less repetitive than some, despite being a six-parter. I don't imagine many people think of it as a particular favourite, but it's entertaining enough.
Decided to start watching Castrovalva. I like Davison and some of his companions, but he didn't get the best bunch of stories. I'm not much of an Ainley Master fan, either. But I haven't seen this one in many years, so what the heck.
Decided to start watching Castrovalva. I like Davison and some of his companions, but he didn't get the best bunch of stories. I'm not much of an Ainley Master fan, either. But I haven't seen this one in many years, so what the heck.
Yep, he's terrific in that.
From what Barry Letts told me 20 plus years ago, 4th Doctor castings went a bit like this.
Michael Bentine: great but he wanted to co-write. So no.
Graham Crowden: great, but he would only sign for one series, so no.
Richard Hearne: seemed like a great idea until they realised he was senile.
etc etc etc. They were settling on Fulton McKay... and then Tom walked in.
I absolutely love The Mutants. I know that it is not most people's favorite, but I think it's great. It feels like a real place with real history. Actually, several real places (the station and planet) with several different real histories.
I hate The Mutants. My pick for worst Third Doctor adventure.
I find The Doctor to be plenty mysterious even in 2017. He doesn't need to be a complete mystery, and its not like knowing he had a family life that isn't completely unlike humans (meaning he was born the same way, grew up, presumably had at least one kid then at least one grandkid all before he left Galifrey) was a bad thing. There is still a lot we don't know, although I'd definitely like to know a bit more about him honestly.
As for Delta & The Bannerman, it had McCoy at his best. Just a nice eccentric guy, who wasn't trying to torture anyone or pretending he was some mastermind who puts Sherlock to shame. The overall story, while a bit "fluffy", was also done fairly decently. Its not even in a Top 20 Classic Who stories list, but its a pleasant enough story. Even if, say, Battlefield or Remembrance are technically better, and have a better companion, I don't like the sociopathic 7th Doctor so Delta & The Bannerman will always be my favorite 7th Doctor story. Now, my favorite 7th Doctor moment is him getting killed on the operating table from the DW TV Movie, but for stories all about him D&TBM is the best story with a version of the 7th Doctor that I actually liked as a character.
Greatest Show in the Galaxy (aka my most hated Doctor Who story, Classic or Nu): The Doctor takes Ace to be psychologically tortured by clowns, because he is a nutjob. The fact that there was shifty things happening at the circus was not something he was aware of, he just wanted to cause Ace mental distress and stumbled into something.
Ghost Light: Doctor takes Ace to relive mental trauma at haunted house for no reason (he didn't know there was anything wrong with the house when they went there, it was just to screw with Ace).
Curse of Fenric: We find out The Doctor has been manipulating her life for no real reason, tries teaching her asinine lessons (Yeah, Ace's Mom was a baby at one point, that doesn't effect whether she was a terrible mother or not), directly psychologically tortures her for reasons the story tries to justify but doesn't actually make any sense, then ends the story revealing that he picked her specifically like a scientist and a lab rat, shooting her off into the future specifically so he could screw with her mentally. So, he's not just treating her like a lab rat he cares nothing about except with how she can effect his experiments, but he's been doing it since before Mel left. He both definitively proved to me that he's almost as evil as The Master (and has more emotional issues then most versions of The Master, since every incarnation of The Master at least has things resembling emotions) and he also jumped the shark with long term planning.
Once again, kirk55555, you and I will disagree violently. 
Curse of Fenric is the most adult storyline Doctor Who had attempted in that decade. It basically set the template for the Virgin Adventures, certainly in tone. And McCoy's characterization in his last two seasons was very much in line with the NuWho Doctors, merculiar but still very serious often spouting immense threats when angry or despaired. He's not villainous, he's just a lot conscious of the effect his decisions have on those he protects, and is aware of his own importance as a gentleman of the universe. He is a lot more than just another Time Lord, if 25 years of a show could prove anything.
Meanwhile, season 24 lacked any focus, and that extended to the Doctor. Poor McCoy was trying his darnest to allow the character to be Doctor-ish, but he still had to act in the awful story that was Time & The Rani. No Doctor could've come unscathed from that one.
And Greatest Show... is that great, but its notwhere near as bad as you make it out to be. Besides, its still a million times better than Timelash.
Curse of Fenric is the most adult storyline Doctor Who had attempted in that decade. It basically set the template for the Virgin Adventures, certainly in tone. And McCoy's characterization in his last two seasons was very much in line with the NuWho Doctors, merculiar but still very serious often spouting immense threats when angry or despaired. He's not villainous, he's just a lot conscious of the effect his decisions have on those he protects, and is aware of his own importance as a gentleman of the universe. He is a lot more than just another Time Lord, if 25 years of a show could prove anything.
Meanwhile, season 24 lacked any focus, and that extended to the Doctor. Poor McCoy was trying his darnest to allow the character to be Doctor-ish, but he still had to act in the awful story that was Time & The Rani. No Doctor could've come unscathed from that one.
And Greatest Show... is that great, but its notwhere near as bad as you make it out to be. Besides, its still a million times better than Timelash.
Agreed, it almost makes me wonder if Kirk5555 has actually watched the episodes or just gotten his thoughts about them by reading a summary. Its happened before. Now to be honest I think he has seen them but had a bias before starting to watch them?Once again, kirk55555, you and I will disagree violently.
Anyway his opinion, but a bit unfathomable to me.
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