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^I gather that Philip Hinchcliffe played a role in the process as well. He was the producer by the time it was made, of course, and Holmes was his script editor. Although I read he didn't like the Daleks much, which I guess is why they didn't return until Graham Williams took over.
^I gather that Philip Hinchcliffe played a role in the process as well. He was the producer by the time it was made, of course, and Holmes was his script editor. Although I read he didn't like the Daleks much, which I guess is why they didn't return until Graham Williams took over.
It's one of those overlap stories; Barry Letts had already decided to do a Dalek and Cyberman story in the new Doctor's first season before Hinchcliffe arrived, so he had no real say on it.
Holmes on the other hand had done most of the actual script-editing work on Death to the Daleks the previous season (as Dicks was busy rewriting Monster of Peladon), which made him determined to push Nation into working harder and better.
Then David Maloney arrived as director, pushed to make it brutally real, and Hinchcliffe said an eager yes to that
It's one of those overlap stories; Barry Letts had already decided to do a Dalek and Cyberman story in the new Doctor's first season before Hinchcliffe arrived, so he had no real say on it.
Holmes on the other hand had done most of the actual script-editing work on Death to the Daleks the previous season (as Dicks was busy rewriting Monster of Peladon), which made him determined to push Nation into working harder and better.
Then David Maloney arrived as director, pushed to make it brutally real, and Hinchcliffe said an eager yes to that
"The Invasion" is a classic too. It's a little padded to stretch out to 8 episodes, but it's a solid story. Vaughn is a good villain, and Packer is one of the all-time best henchmen, although
I feel Packer's story arc lacked a good conclusion -- it would've been nice to see him turn on Vaughn, say.
And of course it's the template for the UNIT era, and it uses all its characters well. (It makes me regret that the plans to keep Zoe on as the Third Doctor's companion fell through when Padbury decided to leave with Troughton and Hines.)
yes. I have that on DVD too. You're right it IS a bit on the long side being stretched into 8 parts but still, nonetheless, a great story. Poor Packer! Great introduction for both the Brigadier and UNIT.
Yes, I daresay it's the best Terry Nation Dalek story, although story editor Robert Holmes no doubt had a hand in it. Some people assume Holmes rewrote it, but the consensus seems to be that his role was probably more along the lines of pushing Nation to up his game and get out of his rut of derivative, repetitive Dalek stories. Going back to the beginning and adding Davros probably revitalized Nation and helped him turn out such a potent story.
Hi, just found this thread... I've been doing a chronological rewatch of the whole series (including watching the lost-episode reconstructions for the first time), and I just reached the end of the Troughton era with "The War Games." I remember it feeling kind of tedious when I watched in 4-hour movie form on PBS Saturday nights (I don't think they broke it up, although they might have), but renting it from Netflix means I got it in two 5-part chunks, and this time I felt the pacing worked surprisingly well. It doesn't get tiresome, because the story keeps evolving and expanding and making new revelations. First we're in the War Zones and it's the sinister generals as the villains. Then we get the time-travel surprise and we start to learn about the control center and the gaming of various wars. Then the War Chief and the Security Chief come in and their rivalry develops. Then we start to get hints about the Time Lords and the mysterious link between the War Chief and the Doctor, and then the secrets of the Doctor's origins begin to come out. Then Philip Madoc shows up as the War Lord and totally steals the show with his mellow, understated menace, while the heroes return to the War Zones to build the resistance army. And then it all comes to a climax and then suddenly steps up to a whole new level as the Time Lords are brought in at last.
Considering how hastily it was written and how much it had to be stretched out to fill ten episodes, "The War Games" is a strikingly effective and well-structured narrative. The lack of monsters and the focus on man's inhumanity to man gives it a more serious, intense feel than most DW serials, though it doesn't lack for humor. It's also got what may be my favorite Dudley Simpson score, certainly where the Hartnell/Troughton era was concerned.
Yeah, I just finished The War Games and I agree with pretty much everything you said. An epic, impressive story that doesn't drag despite its length. A strong group of guest character to go along with the main cast.
The War Chief reminded me a lot of The Master and I could have bought a retcon on that front.
There are fan theories that the Master was the War Chief, though lots of non-TV stuff rules it out.
Equally, Philip Madoc always grumbled light-heartedly that Roger Delgado had stolen his role, and early drafts for Terror of the Autons do fit with the Master being the War Lord, regenerated after being rescued by the Nestenes from Time Lord custody (remember, the continuity is a bit fluid in 1970, so if that had been there it wouldn't have been a major issue).
I used to like the idea of the War Chief being the Master, but I got the impression in my recent rewatch that the War Chief only knew of the Doctor from reputation ("I know who you are") rather than being an old friend. The Doctor recognized him, yes, but maybe only as a fellow Time Lord. At the very least, it seems they were acquaintances at most; there's no sense of a shared personal history, no hint from the Doctor of his complex and ambivalent feelings toward the Master (what Steven Moffat described as a close friendship between a vegetarian and a hunter). I gather some books have claimed that all three of them were friends in the old days, but I think that doesn't quite fit what we saw onscreen.
Equally, Philip Madoc always grumbled light-heartedly that Roger Delgado had stolen his role, and early drafts for Terror of the Autons do fit with the Master being the War Lord, regenerated after being rescued by the Nestenes from Time Lord custody (remember, the continuity is a bit fluid in 1970, so if that had been there it wouldn't have been a major issue).
Well, Barry Letts instantly decided that he'd ask his old friend Delgado to play the role, and Madoc had too much other work in the pipeline to be available for a full season, so it was never a real possibility. But yes, it would have been interesting.
The War Chief is the Master, for me. From the first moment I saw him till today.
Not only does his return in Terror of the Autons simply work much better in that regard, but his and Second's meeting with him in War Games is a fantastic display of two Time Lords who do their best to hide their true origins from the Time Lords of Gallifrey.
I just finished watching The Enemy of the World. It was a very good story. Patrick Troughton did a great job as both The Doctor (which he's always great at) and Salamander. Really, the only problem is that making Salamander hispanic was a bad decision. I think that it was a bit better here then what happened in The Talons of Wang-Chiang, because at least Salamander as a character was a bit better developed and the stuff with the character didn't revolve around his "race", but its still an unfortunate choice.
That said, I still really liked the story. Really, the only story problem was how oddly obsessed The Doctor was with getting a bunch of evidence against Salamander. I get wanting to make sure you don't mess things up, but he took it a bit extreme in this case. Outside of that, it was a very good story that didn't feel slow even at six episodes. I'm glad they recovered this story.
Yeah, the 'need for proof' aspect does make the Doctor very passive. Obviously the scripting reason is to minimise the alternation of the two roles, so that apart from ep6 Troughton can just play one in studio while the other only appears in pre-recorded stuff, but it does make it more like a Hartnell story than a Troughton in some ways.
I don't see the problem with the Doctor demanding proof. After all, the world saw Salamander as a great benefactor; the Doctor wasn't just going to take Giles Kent's word that he was a bad guy. There is a thing called the presumption of innocence, after all. And as it turned out, the Doctor's instincts in mistrusting Kent were dead on.
I don't see the problem with the Doctor demanding proof. After all, the world saw Salamander as a great benefactor; the Doctor wasn't just going to take Giles Kent's word that he was a bad guy. There is a thing called the presumption of innocence, after all. And as it turned out, the Doctor's instincts in mistrusting Kent were dead on.
The major problem is, as has been pointed out, Troughton frequently visits the 21st century, yet no-one ever says "Hold on, you look just like Salamander, that world saviour/dictator who iinexplicably vanished in 2017."
The major problem is, as has been pointed out, Troughton frequently visits the 21st century, yet no-one ever says "Hold on, you look just like Salamander, that world saviour/dictator who iinexplicably vanished in 2017."
Well, it's not like any of the other 21st-century stories were consistent with each other anyway. "The Moonbase" has the Gravitron on the Moon in 2070 and spaceships in routine use, but "The Seeds of Death" has the T-Mat relay on the Moon in the late 21st century and nobody's used spaceships in decades. And "The Wheel in Space" is sometime in the 21st century, yet the Wheel staff has never heard of Cybermen, even though the Moonbase staff remembered their 1986 invasion.
How many of those are CONFIRMED ON-SCREEN to be the twenty-first century? How many of them are isolated bases or places which seem to be concentrating on science and excluding humanity's own history?
I'm more concerned about the lack of world Salamander-ruled government in the current NuWho stories. Anyone would think the 1960s Who Production Team actually assumed Who wouldn't still be going in 2018* and therefore just didn't think about all these adventures set in the current day where people SHOULD be drooling over Salamander's Suncatcher solving all our problems.
(Though you never know. Season 8 slipped in a pic of Troughton as Robin Hood, maybe Season 10'll have a sly Salamander reference.)
*Well, OK, who DID? Let's admit it, even when the Glorious Resurrection was announced, none of us DARED to look ahead to a guaranteed series of Who in 2018...
Moonbase is 2070.
Enemy of the World is, we now know from the recovered episodes, 2017.
Wheel in Space is definitely 21st century, but no date.
Seeds of Death is 2080s according to the Virgin books, but now fits nicely prior to Kill the Moon (to save Chris the effort, yes I know Kill the Moon is scientifically illiterate. But if it happened, putting a gravity device on the new Moon makes sense, and fits with the 'Been here for 20 years' comment in Moonbase.
We could add in here Whitaker's original season six version of what became Ambassadors of Death, which MAY have been set in roughly the same 50 years ahead world as Enemy and Wheel, rather the sort-of-tomorrow UNIT era.
"Wheel"'s dating is very inconsistent -- in some respects, it seems like a distant interstellar future, but then Zoe said in "The Mind Robber" that she was reading comics in the year 2000 -- which would mean she was born in the late 20th century -- but in "The War Games" she insisted under mind probe that she was born in the 21st century. And even mathematical genius Zoe wasn't allowed to get more specific, because they didn't want to lock down a specific date.
The point is, they weren't really trying to maintain that much continuity from serial to serial, or to build a consistent vision of the future. These were seen as disposable, one-shot adventures that would be forgotten after they were broadcast, and that would be watched by a young audience that might not even have been watching a year or two before. So the attitude toward continuity was totally cavalier. They didn't bother to try to maintain a chronology of when things happened in the future; the costume and scenery design notes pretty much labeled every future story as "the year 2000" as a placeholder for "unspecified future." So it's no wonder the date references we do have are so inconsistent.
As Terrance Dicks said, continuity is what I can remember for as long as I'm here.
It irritates slightly when you have someone like David Whitaker writing several stories in close succession, yet there are still things that worry us in hindsight!
I just finished watching The Enemy of the World. It was a very good story. Patrick Troughton did a great job as both The Doctor (which he's always great at) and Salamander. Really, the only problem is that making Salamander Hispanic was a bad decision. I think that it was a bit better here then what happened in The Talons of Wang-Chiang, because at least Salamander as a character was a bit better developed and the stuff with the character didn't revolve around his "race", but its still an unfortunate choice.
"Wheel"'s dating is very inconsistent -- in some respects, it seems like a distant interstellar future, but then Zoe said in "The Mind Robber" that she was reading comics in the year 2000 -- which would mean she was born in the late 20th century -- but in "The War Games" she insisted under mind probe that she was born in the 21st century. And even mathematical genius Zoe wasn't allowed to get more specific, because they didn't want to lock down a specific date.
IIRC, in "The Mind Robber," it's the Doctor who states 2000 as the "attribution" date for Ze Karkus. But perhaps that's merely the date that the character was originally created. Perhaps Zoe didn't start reading his adventures until much later. Much like today we have many Doctor Who fans who weren't born yet when the series originally started. (Heck, I wasn't born until the Peter Davison years.)
And perhaps Zoe didn't give a more specific date in "The War Games" because she was trying to resist the mind probe. The century was all the detail that the Security Chief was able to get out of her.
Last night I was watching "Invasion of the Dinosaurs, Part 1." The black & white version, not the half-assed partially colorized version that they included on the DVD. Frankly, I think Pertwees stories often come off as more moody & atmospheric when I watch them in black & white, despite the fact that they were originally shot in color. It makes it feel more like the Troughton era, I guess, which works for me!
