Last Classic Who Story you watched

[kirk55555]

I've just started watching Four to Doomsday (I finished episode 1). Between Adric and Tegan I think I owe Mel an apology. I think I was a bit too hasty in declaring her the most annoying Classic Who companion. Adric is a whiny jerk and Tegan is complaining constantly (and doesn't understand the concept of a time machine, even though Adric specifically tells her that it doesn't matter how long anything takes, The Doctor can still get her back to the airport in time). Mel may have an annoying scream and a bit of a grating personality but at least she wasn't constantly negative. I did think it was funny that they implied that Tegan speaks the same language as the aborigine just because she's Australian I'm not saying that she couldn't know the language, just that the implication that it was just an average Australian thing seemed a bit goofy. Still, overall the episode was fine (although the cliffhangar was weak). The aliens aren't the best design, but they're interesting. An good set up, although not much happened this episode.

Also, I want to see the "space suits" from this show return in NuWho. Replace the standard orange suit they've been using for years with a hilariously goofy helmet that isn't even visibly sealed, and even if it has a force field still leaves hands and everything else open to the hostile atmosphere/vacuum

 

[Christopher]

IIRC, in "The Mind Robber," it's the Doctor who states 2000 as the "attribution" date for Ze Karkus. But perhaps that's merely the date that the character was originally created. Perhaps Zoe didn't start reading his adventures until much later.

But the Doctor had never heard of the Karkus and didn't recognize him. Zoe had to explain to him "We all follow his adventures in the strip sections of the hourly telepress," to which the Doctor replied, "The strip? Oh, a strip cartoon of the year 2000?" Since the character was unfamiliar to him, the only possible basis he had for thinking of the year 2000 was that it was Zoe's own era -- and note that she was speaking of reading the strip in the present tense, not the past. Also, Zoe affirmed his date attribution rather than correcting it -- and, knowing Zoe, there's no way she would've let an inaccurate date attribution go uncorrected.

And perhaps Zoe didn't give a more specific date in "The War Games" because she was trying to resist the mind probe. The century was all the detail that the Security Chief was able to get out of her.

Except that she wasn't trying to resist. She was trying to convince the Security Chief of her true origin, not to hide it from him. He assumed she was a resistance member from one of the historical war zones, and she tried in vain to convince him that she was actually a time traveler from outside the games. It would've actually helped her case if she'd given more precise details of her space-age life, details that an abductee from 1917 or earlier couldn't possibly have known. So the fact that the writers were forced to keep it vague worked against the intent of the scene.

 

[Mr Soak]

I did think it was funny that they implied that Tegan speaks the same language as the aborigine just because she's Australian I'm not saying that she couldn't know the language, just that the implication that it was just an average Australian thing seemed a bit goofy.

Considering the number of Aboriginal languages, and the average Australian's "knowledge" (ignorance) of such things, it would be like winning the lottery for a random Australian to speak with a random Aborigine in their own language, even if the Aboriginal language is still in use today.

 

[kirk55555]

I finished the second episode of Four to Doomsday, and again not much happened. Mostly just a bunch of wandering around. Pretty boring wandering, too. Whether its Nyssa and Adric looking at standard sci fi tech stuff or The Doctor and the annoying Tegan watching a tedious cultural display, most of the episode wasn't very interesting. Even when something happened, like when Nyssa and Adric went into a room without air, they didn't find the lack of air too much of an issue, and so that barely interrupted the wandering. I haven't seen this much pointless wandering in Doctor Who since I suffered through part of The City of Death, although at least this episode has a few interesting elements and a few things do happen during the wandering. The effects kind of made the cliffhangar goofy, not that it would have been that interesting even if they were better.

Overall, a pretty mediocre episode. Outside of the android body reveal, 95% of the episode could have been cut out and nothing would have been lost. Hopefully the next episode is more interesting.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

^I don't think "Four to Doomsday" ever gets better. The entire story is pretty crappy. And the cultural dances have this cheesy "It's a Small World" element to them that's really hard to take.

I've just started watching Four to Doomsday (I finished episode 1). Between Adric and Tegan I think I owe Mel an apology. I think I was a bit too hasty in declaring her the most annoying Classic Who companion.

As annoying as Adric could be sometimes, I still think Turlough is the worst. His sniveling coward routine, while not present in all of his stories, was nevertheless more obnoxious than anything we ever got from Adric's smug boy-genius routine.

And, actually, I kinda like Tegan. I just think she was paired up with the wrong Doctor. She needed a loud Doctor that could match her when needed. Peter Davison was far too mild-mannered for that. IMO, Tegan came across best when paired up with the equally brash Colin Baker in "A Fix with the Sontarans."

I was just rewatching "Invasion of the Dinosaurs" parts 4 & 5. The story was written by Malcolm Hulke, one of Doctor Who's most notorious left-wing writers. Yet most of the liberals don't come across very well in the story. While motivated by good intentions, the leaders of Project Golden Age nevertheless plan to wipe out billions of people over millions of generations by turning back time so that they never existed. Meanwhile, the lower-ranking members of the project are (a) too stupid to realize that they're in an underground bunker, not a spaceship and (b) so intolerant of dissenting opinions that they talk about killing Sarah Jane if she doesn't tow the party line.

 

[Christopher]

As annoying as Adric could be sometimes, I still think Turlough is the worst. His sniveling coward routine, while not present in all of his stories, was nevertheless more obnoxious than anything we ever got from Adric's smug boy-genius routine.

And, actually, I kinda like Tegan. I just think she was paired up with the wrong Doctor. She needed a loud Doctor that could match her when needed. Peter Davison was far too mild-mannered for that. IMO, Tegan came across best when paired up with the equally brash Colin Baker in "A Fix with the Sontarans."

And Nyssa could've been a terrific companion, but she was given far too little to do because there were too many others in the cast. If it had just been the Doctor, Nyssa, and Adric, they could've had a dynamic like Troughton's Doctor had with Zoe and Jamie. Or, heck, maybe the Doctor, Nyssa, and Tegan could've worked too.

I was just rewatching "Invasion of the Dinosaurs" parts 4 & 5. The story was written by Malcolm Hulke, one of Doctor Who's most notorious left-wing writers. Yet most of the liberals don't come across very well in the story. While motivated by good intentions, the leaders of Project Golden Age nevertheless plan to wipe out billions of people over millions of generations by turning back time so that they never existed. Meanwhile, the lower-ranking members of the project are (a) too stupid to realize that they're in an underground bunker, not a spaceship and (b) so intolerant of dissenting opinions that they talk about killing Sarah Jane if she doesn't tow the party line.

From what I recall hearing about Hulke, he did have a point of view, but he wasn't one-sided about how he presented it. He tried to have good people and flawed people on both sides of the debate, I think. I mean, he was the one who had the Brigadier blow up the Silurians, a decision the Doctor despised, but he didn't make the Brig into a villain in the process. He was just a decent man doing what he believed he had to do.

It's interesting how Doctor Who has stories voicing both liberal and conservative points of view at various times. Like how as the bookends of a single season, you got "The Dominators," parodying the pacifist movement of the era as ineffectual weakness, and Hulke's "The War Games," a scathing allegory about the callousness with which the powerful throw human lives away in pointless wars. And you had all the hippie-Buddhist-save-the-earth stuff of the Barry Letts era, but story-edited by Robert Holmes, who tended more toward the right and later wrote the caustic anti-tax satire "The Sunmakers."

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

And Nyssa could've been a terrific companion, but she was given far too little to do because there were too many others in the cast. If it had just been the Doctor, Nyssa, and Adric, they could've had a dynamic like Troughton's Doctor had with Zoe and Jamie. Or, heck, maybe the Doctor, Nyssa, and Tegan could've worked too.

I think the big problem is that Adric & Nyssa were too similar. They were both quiet science nerds. Now, if the show had taken that into account and used that to have them bounce off each other (or perhaps even develop some romantic chemistry), it would have worked. But instead, they just ended up making each other redundant. It was the same thing with Ben & Jamie during the early Patrick Troughton years.

That's why I think, while 2 companions is ideal, 3 is too messy. Unless we're talking about times when the dynamics were very carefully thought out, like the early days with Hartnell, Ian, Barbara, & Susan/Vicki or bits of the Moffat era with Smith, Amy, Rory, & River.

 

[Christopher]

I think the big problem is that Adric & Nyssa were too similar. They were both quiet science nerds.

I think that's understating their differences. Adric was good at maths but was a naive youth whose need to prove himself and earn others' approval tended to get him into trouble. Nyssa was a few years older, more mature and quietly self-confident. She was also virtually royalty, putting her a couple of tiers of social class above Adric -- which would be pretty important to British writers, if less noticeable to Americans.

Now, if the show had taken that into account and used that to have them bounce off each other (or perhaps even develop some romantic chemistry), it would have worked.

I think Adric was a bit young for Nyssa, though the actors were the same age. Adric was supposed to be 14, as I recall, while I think Nyssa was more like 16 or 17. Although that's just my impression -- I can't find a source for the character's age.

It was the same thing with Ben & Jamie during the early Patrick Troughton years.

Well, the early Patrick Troughton five months, more like.

That's why I think, while 2 companions is ideal, 3 is too messy. Unless we're talking about times when the dynamics were very carefully thought out, like the early days with Hartnell, Ian, Barbara, & Susan/Vicki or bits of the Moffat era with Smith, Amy, Rory, & River.

The four-member cast worked well originally because the roles were different. Ian and Barbara were the leads, Susan was the teen sidekick for the young viewers to identify with, and the Doctor was the mysterious mentor figure who served as their guide and the catalyst for their adventures. Once it shifted to the Doctor being the lead character and the companions being secondary, there was no need for that many companions. (Although the new show has pretty much always treated the Doctor and the main companion as equals.)

 

[kirk55555]

Four to Doomsday episode 3 was annoying. I seriously thought that Adric was trying to trick the bad guys, up until he obviously wasn't. I actually kind of rolled my eyes because the deception seemed so obvious. It actually turns out that I'd underestimated Adric's stupidity. Tegan's actions near the end of the episode didn't help. Between her freak out with the Doctor and her attempts to fly the TARDIS, she was pretty bad. The only good thing she did was knock out Adric, and I'm pretty sure that was unintentional. Three episodes in, and I seriously think they could have done all of this in an episode if they cut out the wastes of time, maybe an episode and a half. This is a rough serial to get through. Only one more episode, thankfully.

 

[kirk55555]

I've finished Four to Doomsday. It was a bad story where barely anything happened, and it ended on a whimper. The only thing it accomplished is to make me really hate Adric (I just thought of him as annoying before, but he's a complete idiot in this story). there was about two episodes worth of story stretched into four with really bad padding (I can't believe they actually went back to the festival/cultural show thing in episode 4 to help pad out the run time ). So, yeah, overall this is the worst 5th Doctor story I've seen (although I have a bunch left to watch). Next though, whenever I get to it, will be a rewatch of The Ribos Operation (since I just got the special edition DVD).

 

[DarthPipes]

On the subject of Four to Doomsday (which I admit I liked) it really is a bad episode for both Tegan and Adric. I understood why Adric was so hated by the fans after that one and Tegan is unbearably annoying (I did cheer though when she caused Adric to fall and hit his head). Adric was better with Tom Baker (The Keeper of Traken is a good example) because Baker literally swallowed up Waterhouse with his charisma and acting ability and made you forget he was even there.

Nyssa (Arc of Infinity) and Turlough (The Awakening and Planet of Fire) could be really good companions but they weren't utilized correctly or portrayed consistently from story to story. Tegan could be pretty good (The Awakening once again) but the show often made her one of the most unbearable companions in the history of the show.

 

[Mr Awe]

I enjoyed Four to Doomsday as well. It wasn't the best story ever but I find that it has a quiet type of charm. They land somewhere and they slowly explore it and find out what's going on. Not the best use of Tegan and Adric, but I guess you could say at least it was true to their characters!

Mr Awe

 

[diankra]

I don't think anyone rates Four to Doomsday as anything more than "Not as bad as most say". It's a script from someone who, despite a good 20 year track record as a BBC SF writer/director/producer, has been hired mostly because old protogees want to give him writing work now he's hit the retirement age for BBC staff. Terence Dudley was asked to work on Doctor Who in 1963 and said no, now he delivers a weak Hartnell story.
Then add in the problems of a new Doctor (sneering Tom might have worked better against Monarch), Adric not working as well with the new Doctor, and a late rewrite to add in Nyssa (which is reasonably well handled: it's only once incoming script editor Eric Saward decided she was boring that she regularly becomes so: Arc and Snakedance show how good she could be as effective sole companion)... and you have a dud.

 

[kirk55555]

Of the 5th Doctor stories I've seen (Castrovalva, Four to Doomsday, Earthshock, The King's Demons, The Five Doctors, Warriors of the Deep and The Caves of Androzani) Nyssa is easily the best of the 5th Doctor's companions (although Peri is pretty close, then again I'm biased towards Peri because of how much I love the 6th Doctor's era). I wish they'd gotten rid of Adric and Tegan and just kept Nyssa. The show has worked fine with the companion being an intellectual (Romana I and Liz Shaw were great intelligent companions). But, I think the Classic Who producers preferred more of a stereotypical companion who have to ask a lot of questions (I read that's why Jo Grant was created to replace Liz Shaw, so The Doctor would have someone to spout exposition to and explain things).

Of course, its not like the companions in Dr. Who are split into smart/stupid categories. Its just that Nyssa feels like a good fit as a scientist type companion, but they end up getting rid of her and keeping the whiny Tegan for most of the run. I will never understand why JNT liked Tegan so much, and disliked Nyssa. Then again, there is a lot of JNT things I think that I'll never understand.

 

[diankra]

It was script editor Eric Saward who disliked Nyssa more than JN-T. Even though he'd already written her fairly well in The Visitation. But he clearly never saw Keeper of Traken, where Nyssa is pretty ruthless and forceful - more entitled and arrogant than naive and innocent.

 

[kirk55555]

It was script editor Eric Saward who disliked Nyssa more than JN-T. Even though he'd already written her fairly well in The Visitation. But he clearly never saw Keeper of Traken, where Nyssa is pretty ruthless and forceful - more entitled and arrogant than naive and innocent.

Saward could be a bit weird. I think he did a decent job, though. Nyssa really felt like a missed opportunity. A last minute companion who gets written out of several stories, but who had a lot of potential. It sucks how Tegan of all people lasted longer then Nyssa. At least Nyssa outlasted Adric.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

Much as everyone criticizes JNT, I suspect Saward was just as much to blame for the show's problems during the Davison & Colin Baker years, if not more so. There's a certain sense of fun that slowly starts to creep back into the show during the McCoy years after Saward left. His successors seemed to understand slightly better that Doctor Who is a star-driven adventure show with sci-fi elements, not a serious sci-fi show. It didn't help that Saward seemed to hate all of the regular characters during his run. They mostly fall into 2 categories-- shrill (Colin Baker, Tegan, Turlough, Peri, Adric) and boring (Peter Davison, Nyssa, Adric, Turlough when he wasn't being a craven lunatic, Peri when she wasn't talking).

That's not to say the show wasn't a convoluted mess during the McCoy years, but at least it seemed like everyone stopped hating each other.

I think Adric was a bit young for Nyssa, though the actors were the same age. Adric was supposed to be 14, as I recall, while I think Nyssa was more like 16 or 17. Although that's just my impression -- I can't find a source for the character's age.

Just going by how it feels, they very much felt like peers who were around the same age when they first met in "The Keeper of Trakken." But Nyssa seemed to mature somewhat during her first year with Davison, whereas Adric didn't.

I've finished Four to Doomsday. It was a bad story where barely anything happened, and it ended on a whimper. The only thing it accomplished is to make me really hate Adric (I just thought of him as annoying before, but he's a complete idiot in this story). there was about two episodes worth of story stretched into four with really bad padding (I can't believe they actually went back to the festival/cultural show thing in episode 4 to help pad out the run time ). So, yeah, overall this is the worst 5th Doctor story I've seen (although I have a bunch left to watch).

I'm not a big fan of the Davison years. But even then, it's a very weak story. Nowhere near as bad as "Mawdryn Undead" but worse than "Warriors of the Deep," which is saying something.

As I understand it, "Four to Doomsday" was kinda rushed into production because they needed to shoot something, all of the other scripts were in even worse shape, and no one could get ahold of JNT for his input because he was off doing an American convention or something.

Adric was better with Tom Baker (The Keeper of Traken is a good example) because Baker literally swallowed up Waterhouse with his charisma and acting ability and made you forget he was even there.

I think the 4th Doctor kinda liked Adric because he saw a little bit of his young, rebellious self in him. Plus, when both Romana & Adric were around, it meant that Romana was so busy looking after Adric that the Doctor could have a free hand to do what he wanted without Romana lecturing him. I don't know why it seems like the 5th Doctor had such a different attitude towards him. Particularly since, IRL, IIRC, Tom Baker didn't really like him whereas Davison is so famously personable that he got along with everyone.

 

[kirk55555]

Much as everyone criticizes JNT, I suspect Saward was just as much to blame for the show's problems during the Davison & Colin Baker years, if not more so. There's a certain sense of fun that slowly starts to creep back into the show during the McCoy years after Saward left. His successors seemed to understand slightly better that Doctor Who is a star-driven adventure show with sci-fi elements, not a serious sci-fi show. It didn't help that Saward seemed to hate all of the regular characters during his run. They mostly fall into 2 categories-- shrill (Colin Baker, Tegan, Turlough, Peri, Adric) and boring (Peter Davison, Nyssa, Adric, Turlough when he wasn't being a craven lunatic, Peri when she wasn't talking).

I'm not that harsh toward Saward. Colin Baker is my favorite Doctor, so I generally like what they did with him (outside of choking Peri, and giving him Mel as a companion). They needed much better regular writers in the 6th Doctor era, but I don't know how much control Saward had over that. I also liked Earthshock a lot. That said, Saward's 6th Doctor story (Revelation of the Daleks) was pretty terrible. Still, I consider the McCoy era to be a big step down in quality, so I'd say that Saward did decently on the show. The show had much better people in charge in its history, but the group of people that give me my favorite Doctor aren't what I'd consider bad at their jobs. Well, JNT wasn't great, but he had some good moments. He also gave me more Classic Who that I enjoy then Douglas Adams or Graham Williams did.

I'm not a big fan of the Davison years. But even then, it's a very weak story. Nowhere near as bad as "Mawdryn Undead" but worse than "Warriors of the Deep," which is saying something.

I actually kind of like Warriors of the Deep. Part of it is the connection to the Pertwee era stories that I liked, but as goofy and as stupid as it can be I find it to be an entertaining kind of stupid.

 

[diankra]

The Saward problem is simply that the script editor, producer and ideally Doctor need to be a team.
Saward and JN-T weren't a team, and Saward wouldn't have cast Colin if he'd been asked. Doesn't matter who's right, if the team isn't together it will go wrong on-screen.

 

[kirk55555]

Honestly, I don't think a script writer needs to be involved with casting The Doctor. Tom baker had a few SE in his time, and obviously only one was around when he was cast. Still, there were obviously problems between Saward and JNT, especially as time went on. That's never a good thing.