last as long as the enterprise?.

[Vance]

Man, Timo, you've been on a serious "I hate the original series and ships and everything" kick today. All your posts lately have been in some way to denegrate the original. Whether to argue 'for' or 'against' canon in an effort to belittle the classic girl. Now going so far as to say that Kirk himself didn't know what the fuck he was talking about for his own ship?

So, time to switch to decaf?

My point was simple. We're not explicitly told in-universe what happened to the class. We're told that only one pre-refit configuration is still around (which is relavent, since that's what Scotty is on in the holodeck). It's very possible that there are a couple of hundred TMP-Style connies out there refit with newer tech over the years. That wouldn't make Picard or Scotty's statements remotely invalid.

And, hell, clearly there's at least one Constitution class ship in active combat duty during the TNG period. She wasn't in the original configuration either, so Scotty and Picard's comments are still valid.

Backstage, we know exactly why the connies aren't shown (often) again. This doesn't really impact canon all that much, though. (I mean, we're talking a level of proof that would require us accepting that the NCC-1864 USS Reliant is destroyed three times during the Dominion War...)

 

[ToddPence]

Two major non-canonical reference sources from the 1970's give us two contradictory lists of the original Constitution-Class starships. In "The Star Fleet Technical Manual", it gives a list of fourteen ships of that class. This not only seems to contrast with Kirk's statement implying that there were thirteen such ships, but the Tech Manual list omits the Defiant, a ship established during the original series as being of the same type as the Enterprise. It also includes the Kongo, a ship never mentioned during the original episodes.

Bjo Trimble's original "Star Trek Concordance" gives a list of thirteen ships and includes the Defiant. This list does not include either the Kongo or the Valiant, a ship classified as one of the class in the Tech manual. Also, the Concordance gives different registry numbers for the ships. Here is a list of how the registry numbers differ for the two different sources:

TECH MANUAL CONCORDANCE

Constellation 1017 1017
Constitution 1700 1700
Defiant xxxx 1764
Enterprise 1701 1701
Excalibur 1705 1664
Exeter 1706 1672
Farragut 1702 1647
Hood 1707 1703
Intrepid 1708 1631
Kongo 1710 xxxx
Lexington 1703 1709
Potemkin 1711 1702
Republic 1371 1373
Valiant 1709 xxxx
Yorktown 1704 1717

 

[Vance]

But, again, that's only the original configuration - and even then you can handwave some of that as 'okay, that's actually the THIRD configuration. We don't know if there were some unuprated ships at the time, or if new ones were coming.' IE, was the Defiant really a ship like her, or were there some differences which may be lost on non naval-men, but a point of pride for Kirk?

We also don't know if the fleet ramped up Constitution class ships (ala FASA or FJ) after the 2260s, etc. That's really my whole point. We're not given 'canon' definitive answers, and now we'll never be given those answers, since 'canon' just got the big ol' reset button anyway.

 

[T'Girl]

... the Excelsior class replaced and phased-out the Constitution class in its overall function ...

Maybe, there is a significant difference in size between the two classes. And during the battle at the end of TUC, the Excelsior doesn't appear to deliver any more violence than the Enterprise.

The two ship could easily hold two entirely different missions within Starfleet. We're never actually told why the Excelsior is twice the size of the Connies.

perhaps the fact that Kirk was wrong about the fate of his own Constitution-refit vessel

What fact are you referring to?

 

[Vance]

The two ship could easily hold two entirely different missions within Starfleet. We're never actually told why the Excelsior is twice the size of the Connies.

Most official sources at the time (licensed works, like FASA) pegged it solely on the transwarp engines. Of course, the Excelsior also has more phasers, torp-ports, etc. as well. I could explain away more than this, of course, but none of it would be an official answer. (And, again, we're not going to get one.)

The only reason we have a clue about the class supplanting the classic Constitution is the presence of so many of them showing up in TNG performing the role. (Easy way to build up your fleet... stock footage!)

 

[cblmc1296]

Two major non-canonical reference sources from the 1970's give us two contradictory lists of the original Constitution-Class starships. In "The Star Fleet Technical Manual", it gives a list of fourteen ships of that class. This not only seems to contrast with Kirk's statement implying that there were thirteen such ships, but the Tech Manual list omits the Defiant, a ship established during the original series as being of the same type as the Enterprise. It also includes the Kongo, a ship never mentioned during the original episodes.

Bjo Trimble's original "Star Trek Concordance" gives a list of thirteen ships and includes the Defiant. This list does not include either the Kongo or the Valiant, a ship classified as one of the class in the Tech manual. Also, the Concordance gives different registry numbers for the ships. Here is a list of how the registry numbers differ for the two different sources:

TECH MANUAL CONCORDANCE

Constellation 1017 1017
Constitution 1700 1700
Defiant xxxx 1764
Enterprise 1701 1701
Excalibur 1705 1664
Exeter 1706 1672
Farragut 1702 1647
Hood 1707 1703
Intrepid 1708 1631
Kongo 1710 xxxx
Lexington 1703 1709
Potemkin 1711 1702
Republic 1371 1373
Valiant 1709 xxxx
Yorktown 1704 1717

I'm sure I heard or read somewhere (possibly at a convention) that the name "Valiant" was originally intended for the inter-phased starship in "The Tholian Web" and they later decided to change it so as not to cause confusion with the "Valiant" mentioned in WNMHGB.

I believe that may partially explain the different references in Bjo's Concordance versus the Technical Manual.

 

[Timo]

...they later decided to change it so as not to cause confusion with the "Valiant" mentioned in WNMHGB.

...And never mind the "Valiant" they already mentioned in "A Taste of Armageddon".

Whether to argue 'for' or 'against' canon in an effort to belittle the classic girl. Now going so far as to say that Kirk himself didn't know what the fuck he was talking about for his own ship?

What about the posting was "belittling", pray tell? Shouldn't the ship only gain in prestige if she represents a successful class of 57, rather than an irrelevant and abortive batch of thirteen?

Kirk appears a trustworthy fellow, so I tend to consider him an authority on issues concerning his ship (unless he speaks within earshot of his enemies - he's cunning like that!). Which is why it's so curious that he never suggests that his ship would be bigger, faster, better or more famous than other vessels in Starfleet service.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Captain Robert April]

The original name for the ship in "The Tholian Web" was the Scimitar. I haven't heard of Valiant being considered, but stranger things have happened.

As for the differences between the Concordance and FJ's tech manual, Bjo was going by the registry list provided by Greg Jein, whereas as best as can be determined, FJ was going by the decal sheet in the AMT model.

 

[Vance]

What about the posting was "belittling", pray tell? Shouldn't the ship only gain in prestige if she represents a successful class of 57, rather than an irrelevant and abortive batch of thirteen?

Calling Kirk a liar just to defend the 'newfound importance of the NuTrek' ship, basically. For the past few months, now, you've made it your mission to denegrate the classic Constitution as a failure, somehow, just so you can claim that the new design is not.

The fact that you're doing this on every single thread about the classic girl is very disturbing. I do not know why you have such an emotional interest in shitting on the original series to artificially hold up the new movie, but I really do wish you would just stop, particularly when no one is comparing the old ship to the new design in this thread.

Which is why it's so curious that he never suggests that his ship would be bigger, faster, better or more famous than other vessels in Starfleet service.

"How will they catch me, ey? The Enterprise is the fastest ship in the fleet!" - Harry Mudd to James Kirk.

"I'm looking forward to breaking the Enterprise's speed records tommorow." - Captain Styles to Montgomery Scott.

"... A starship, a very special vessel and crew." - Captain Merrick to Prelate Council.

"They'll think twice about attacking the Enterprise with you in command." - Federation CiC

I'm sorry, but your selective ignoring of 40 years of the franchise, and outright lying, to somehow portray the ship as 'unimportant' or 'lesser' to ships not shown on screen is getting old and trite.

I do not understand your reasoning and continued insistance on doing this.

 

[SPCTRE]

You've gotta admit, that thread title looks a lot like the subject line for some pharmaceutical type spam mail.

 

[Timo]

I do not know why you have such an emotional interest in shitting on the original series to artificially hold up the new movie, but I really do wish you would just stop, particularly when no one is comparing the old ship to the new design in this thread.

Go get medicated. It's all in your head, I'm afraid.

"How will they catch me, ey? The Enterprise is the fastest ship in the fleet!" - Harry Mudd to James Kirk.

It's not Kirk speaking, so not a valid rebuttal of the standing fact that Kirk never held his own ship in particular esteem.

"I'm looking forward to breaking the Enterprise's speed records tommorow." - Captain Styles to Montgomery Scott.

Those records would be the result of alien interference, not ship design. Or are you trying to claim that the ship exceeded the speeds witnessed in those "alien interference" episodes without said interference?

"... A starship, a very special vessel and crew." - Captain Merrick to Prelate Council.

The very lack of a definite article there ought to tell ya something.

"They'll think twice about attacking the Enterprise with you in command." - Federation CiC

Meaning the ship is nothing, the man is everything.

I'm sorry, but your selective ignoring of 40 years of the franchise

You used all your four bullets already. All were clean misses. What else is there to ignore?

and outright lying

Do get medicated. You're not entitled to further baseless insults until you get a waiver from a competent psychiatrist.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[cblmc1296]

The original name for the ship in "The Tholian Web" was the Scimitar. I haven't heard of Valiant being considered, but stranger things have happened.

As for the differences between the Concordance and FJ's tech manual, Bjo was going by the registry list provided by Greg Jein, whereas as best as can be determined, FJ was going by the decal sheet in the AMT model.

Well, I am kinda' old and my memory is not what it once was. I just seem to remember hearing that.

As for the reference sources used to determine the names of the various Connies, there were also memos between Bob Justman and D.C. Fontana during early production of TOS that listed potential names for other starships. Someone questioned the name "Kongo" earlier in this thread - I am certain that name was in those memos. I'm pretty sure they were reproduced in Whitfield's "The Making of Star Trek".

 

[brian577]

"How will they catch me, ey? The Enterprise is the fastest ship in the fleet!" - Harry Mudd to James Kirk.

It's not Kirk speaking, so not a valid rebuttal of the standing fact that Kirk never held his own ship in particular esteem.

Scotty did however hold the ship in high esteem, it most certainly is the fastest ship in the fleet. Where do you think he got his reputation as a miracle worker?

 

[cblmc1296]

The original name for the ship in "The Tholian Web" was the Scimitar. I haven't heard of Valiant being considered, but stranger things have happened.

Wow! This just totally came to me out of the blue (I no longer own a copy with which to verify) but I think I recall the reason I considered Valiant as a possible name for the ship in "The Tholian Web". Did James Blish use that name in his novelization (as opposed to the name Defiant)?

Hmmm....

*scratches head

 

[T'Girl]

"How will they catch me, ey? The Enterprise is the fastest ship in the fleet!" - Harry Mudd to James Kirk.

It's not Kirk speaking, so not a valid rebuttal of the standing fact that Kirk never held his own ship in particular esteem.

Harry's words (uttered prior to any alien modifications) could indict that the Enterprise possesses a recognition above other starships, it has a reputation with the general public. This could cause Kirk to feel pride in his command and to have admiration for the Enterprise.

It isn't just any ship to Kirk, it's his ship.

Kirk:
... because the steps I took in the order I took them were absolutely necessary if I were to save my ship.
And nothing is more important than my ship.

 

[Nerys Myk]

"How will they catch me, ey? The Enterprise is the fastest ship in the fleet!" - Harry Mudd to James Kirk.

It's not Kirk speaking, so not a valid rebuttal of the standing fact that Kirk never held his own ship in particular esteem.

Scotty did however hold the ship in high esteem, it most certainly is the fastest ship in the fleet. Where do you think he got his reputation as a miracle worker?

Coming back to life after a weekend pubcrawl?

 

[YARN]

It's not Kirk speaking, so not a valid rebuttal of the standing fact that Kirk never held his own ship in particular esteem.

Kirk held his ship in the highest regard. His irrational love for his ship allowed him to break the magic mojo love spell (Private Little War). One of his greatest fears is losing command of the Enterprise (And the Children Shall Lead). He throws Decker under the bus to get back the Enterprise (TMP).

If Mudd had said something factually in error (e.g., "The Enterprise is the largest ship in the fleet! I'll fill her to the gunnels with slave women!"), Kirk would have corrected him (e.g., "No, there are 12 others like her which would eventually catch you and drag you to the nearest Starbase!").

NOTE: Mudd isn't really saying the line to Kirk. Mudd is fictional and so is Kirk. Mudd is a character who is used by the writers to tell us fictional "facts" about our world. In this case, the audience is told something about the Enterprise. She is, at least at that time, the fastest ship in the fleet.

If we need further proof that the Enterprise is something special, we may turn to the unimpeachable Mr. Spock who refers to the Enterprise as the finest ship in the fleet (The Immunity Syndrome).

 

[Captain Robert April]

Well, there is the sniggling detail that he didn't say that.

KIRK: Harry, Harry, you'll never get away with it.

MUDD: Well, who's to stop me?

KIRK: Starfleet.

MUDD: But now, Captain, now I have a ship of my own as fast as any in the fleet, so how will they catch me, eh? Just think of it, laddybuck. Harry Mudd with his own crew of lovelies aboard your vessel. Think about that.

 

[T'Bonz]

To those who got personal, I may have been late getting here today, but you should know that I take a dim view of it. It's just a damned TV show, so can we please discuss it and not get insult each other? How fucking hard is that?

I did have to issue a warning. I don't like doing so and rarely have to do so in this forum. I'd prefer not to issue more.

I know it's easy to get irked during a discussion, but it's very easy online, unlike IRL, to just walk away and cool down. Please do this in future before writing up stuff and hitting submit reply.

To those who don't engage in this type of behavior, thanks.

 

[YARN]

Well, there is the sniggling detail that he didn't say that.

KIRK: Harry, Harry, you'll never get away with it.

MUDD: Well, who's to stop me?

KIRK: Starfleet.

MUDD: But now, Captain, now I have a ship of my own as fast as any in the fleet, so how will they catch me, eh? Just think of it, laddybuck. Harry Mudd with his own crew of lovelies aboard your vessel. Think about that.

LOL, so much for my line of argument on fastest!

Still, there's no denying that the E was considered a special ship.