last as long as the enterprise?.

[Timo]

They didn't find the Intrepid.

They didn't look for her at any point.

It's pretty clearly spelled out that she was eaten by the amoeba.

But so was the Enterprise. No harm came to her from that - only to her crew and her power supplies.

Frankly, I was surprised that the TOS-R team didn't insert some identifiable wreckage as the Enterprise was cruising through the protoplasm.

The thing would have been too big for the two starships to end up within visual range of each other by accident. Visual range being not particularly long in that soup...

From Spock's comment that the crew of the Intrepid didn't understand what was killing them suggests to me that they died prior to being within visual distance of the Space Amoeba.

Neither Spock nor McCoy seemed to be understanding what was killing them, either, despite definitely being within visual range of the beast...

The Enterprise, in some way, did "something" different than the Intrepid. Kirk made a decision different than the Vulcan Captain did, or the Enterprise possessed stronger shields, or the Enterprise slowed down where the Intrepid sped up.

Seems so. Although our heroes never suggested there would have been a difference in the capabilities of the two ships; Kirk assigns the continuing survival of our heroes to the fact that they're acting differently from Vulcans, cruising through the illogic of their situation by virtue of being natural illogicians themselves.

Might be the amoeba killed the Vulcans with a trick we didn't see it use against our heroes. Might simply be the Vulcans tried out some logical trick for blowing up the beast, and ended up blowing up themselves and being astonished by that fact for a fraction of a second.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[CoveTom]

They use 'retrofit' to refer to OLDER ships getting modern weaponry and gear.

Yes, because, well, that's what it means.

Despite the inclusion of "retro" in the word, it doesn't imply installing older technology. The "retro" part would be the ship itself, which is older. IOW, they are fitting an older ship for newer technology. It's a correct usage of the word.

From Wikipedia:

Retrofitting refers to the addition of new technology or features to older systems.

From m-w.com (Merriam-Webster):

1: to furnish (as a computer, airplane, or building) with new or modified parts or equipment not available or considered necessary at the time of manufacture
2: to install (new or modified parts or equipment) in something previously manufactured or constructed
3: to adapt to a new purpose or need : modify <retrofit the story for a new audience>

 

[Vance]

Yes, because, well, that's what it means.

You're right, but I screwed up in what STO does. They have NEW ships that look like old ones... so they're 'retro', but not 'retrofitted'. :P

 

[cblmc1296]

I think I recall reading somewhere (eons ago, btw) that there were supposed to have been 12 starships of the Constitution Class. Perhaps Roddenberry mentioned this in Stephen E. Whitfield’s excellent book “The Making of Star Trek”. I also have something tugging at my consciousness – a dim memory of a passing line of dialog in a TOS episode that refers to the “12 Starship Class vessels” in the fleet. Am I imagining this? Any light that anybody can shed would be great.

FWIW, I can remember the following being mentioned or depicted in TOS: Republic, Potemkin, Farragut, Intrepid, Lexington, Hood, Excalibur, Yorktown, Exeter, Constellation, and Defiant. That makes 11 and, of course, Enterprise is the 12th. If this information can be considered canonical, then I suppose the viewers are to assume that Constitution was a 23rd Century equivalent to our space shuttle Enterprise (i.e. a prototype but not spaceworthy).

In any case, we hear many of these ship names referred to in subsequent ST series. Does anyone think it was the producers’ intention to imply that original Constitution Class ships had undergone refits like Enterprise and perhaps stayed in service for an extremely long time?

 

[Forbin]

I think I recall reading somewhere (eons ago, btw) that there were supposed to have been 12 starships of the Constitution Class. Perhaps Roddenberry mentioned this in Stephen E. Whitfield’s excellent book “The Making of Star Trek”. I also have something tugging at my consciousness – a dim memory of a passing line of dialog in a TOS episode that refers to the “12 Starship Class vessels” in the fleet. Am I imagining this? Any light that anybody can shed would be great.

In Tomorrow is Yesterday, when Capt Christopher comments on the Enterprise, Kirk says, "There are only twelve like her in the fleet."

 

[cblmc1296]

I think I recall reading somewhere (eons ago, btw) that there were supposed to have been 12 starships of the Constitution Class. Perhaps Roddenberry mentioned this in Stephen E. Whitfield’s excellent book “The Making of Star Trek”. I also have something tugging at my consciousness – a dim memory of a passing line of dialog in a TOS episode that refers to the “12 Starship Class vessels” in the fleet. Am I imagining this? Any light that anybody can shed would be great.

In Tomorrow is Yesterday, when Capt Christopher comments on the Enterprise, Kirk says, "There are only twelve like her in the fleet."

Yes!! Thank you.

Sadly, as I've aged and had less time to devote to my fanatical interest in ST I have begun to forget some of those types of details. As a younger guy, many of my acquaintances used to tell me that "Trekker" was not an accurate descriptive term for me - so they came up with "Trekologist". Nowadays - not so much! :-(

So, getting back to the OP's topic - there must have been at least one other Constitution Class starship to stay in service as long as the original Enterprise. Otherwise, where would our beloved crew have gotten their NCC-1701A at the end of ST IV TVH? It must have undergone a similar refit to that of Enterprise and then been renamed right?

 

[milo bloom]

I think I recall reading somewhere (eons ago, btw) that there were supposed to have been 12 starships of the Constitution Class. Perhaps Roddenberry mentioned this in Stephen E. Whitfield’s excellent book “The Making of Star Trek”. I also have something tugging at my consciousness – a dim memory of a passing line of dialog in a TOS episode that refers to the “12 Starship Class vessels” in the fleet. Am I imagining this? Any light that anybody can shed would be great.

In Tomorrow is Yesterday, when Capt Christopher comments on the Enterprise, Kirk says, "There are only twelve like her in the fleet."

Yes!! Thank you.

Sadly, as I've aged and had less time to devote to my fanatical interest in ST I have begun to forget some of those types of details. As a younger guy, many of my acquaintances used to tell me that "Trekker" was not an accurate descriptive term for me - so they came up with "Trekologist". Nowadays - not so much! :-(

So, getting back to the OP's topic - there must have been at least one other Constitution Class starship to stay in service as long as the original Enterprise. Otherwise, where would our beloved crew have gotten their NCC-1701A at the end of ST IV TVH? It must have undergone a similar refit to that of Enterprise and then been renamed right?

I wonder if, instead of it also being a Constitution refit, Starfleet actually built a number of ships with that space frame? Perhaps part of the Enterprise's upgrade was that they were utilizing facilities and parts that would work in both upgrading the old ones and building new "refit" style ones from scratch?

 

[MikeS]

So, getting back to the OP's topic - there must have been at least one other Constitution Class starship to stay in service as long as the original Enterprise. Otherwise, where would our beloved crew have gotten their NCC-1701A at the end of ST IV TVH? It must have undergone a similar refit to that of Enterprise and then been renamed right?

I believe that vessel was originally named the Yorktown though I cannot recall where I read that.

I wonder if, instead of it also being a Constitution refit, Starfleet actually built a number of ships with that space frame? Perhaps part of the Enterprise's upgrade was that they were utilizing facilities and parts that would work in both upgrading the old ones and building new "refit" style ones from scratch?

Bingo. The new ships were the "Constitution II" class. Again, I cannot recall where I read that.

 

[Vance]

I believe that vessel was originally named the Yorktown though I cannot recall where I read that.

Roddenberry, who had nothing to do with TVH, made that claim in order to homage his own work. One small problem, the Yorktown is shown on screen in spacedock at the exact same time the 1701-A is launched.

Bingo. The new ships were the "Constitution II" class. Again, I cannot recall where I read that.

Old fanworks.

 

[Captain Robert April]

I believe that vessel was originally named the Yorktown though I cannot recall where I read that.

Roddenberry, who had nothing to do with TVH, made that claim in order to homage his own work. One small problem, the Yorktown is shown on screen in spacedock at the exact same time the 1701-A is launched.

I still don't buy that.

 

[T'Girl]

Different versions have come out, the one I like the best is there was a brand new starship just off the ways, that was re-named at the last minute so that Kirk's new ship would have the name Enterprise.

A sailor once told me that it is extremely bad luck to re-name a ship. Which might explain the problems with the Enteprise-A i at the beginning of the next movie.

 

[Vance]

I still don't buy that.

I linked the screenshot showing the NCC-1717. Yorktown is mentioned twice by name in the movie and actually shown to us. And there wasn't exactly a LOT of time between Kirk's court martial and re-assignment. The NCC-1701-A simply was not the Yorktown, no matter what the Great Ego of the Galaxy may have decreed.

 

[Mark 2000]

Just looked through Trekcore's HD screen shots. There's an Oberth there with a 3 digit registration and possibly two Connie refits (or Mirandas) that are passed over and by, but neither have visible registrations. So where is the Yorktown in the movie? And what makes you assume that Kirk et al were whisked straight from the Bay into the courtroom? And then straight from the courtroom to the dry dock? The whole thing could have taken months.

 

[cblmc1296]

Well, it seems like the fundamental question is still: Was it a new ship or a refit of an older Connie? If the producers are asking us to assume they're depicting a refitted Connie, then that goes to addressing the OP's comments about ships lasting for decades.

Personally, I would like to think it's a refit of an older ship for that reason and also because they were already capable of constructing ships like Excelsior...so why would they build a new starship using an outdated design like that of the refit Enterprise?

 

[Timo]

They did keep on building some older designs after introducing the "Excelsior generation", apparently. Registry numbers are one indication of this: "mass-produced" Excelsiors include some with four digits (but lower than the four digits of known Constellations), and some in the 14000 range, while the Miranda production goes up to the 31000 range.

Even if we choose to completely ignore registries, we see in DS9 "Emissary" that Starfleet built a Miranda class Saratoga at some point after the (final and fatal?) appearance of a former ship of that name and class in ST4:TVH - after the Excelsior had been introduced.

Since Mirandas are so much more common in the TNG/DS9 era than Constitutions, though, it would make sense to assume that the former type saw more newbuilding than the latter, and possibly also more refitting. It might be that the original Constitution template was so much older than the original Miranda one that the potential for refitting ran out on the Constitutions sooner than on the Mirandas. Or then Kirk's ship type just was less flexible and upgradeable than her sister designs to begin with.

We don't necessarily have to argue that NCC-1701-A was a refit of an aging (or design-wise dated) vessel in order to justify the two facts that a) Starfleet gives up on the class earlier than it does on other classes of that design family and b) Starfleet retires the E-A after a mere decade, for only moderate-looking combat damage. Both facts might have alternate explanations. But it would be rather elegant to accept the E-A as the refit of a refit of an old-timer, the last gasp of a long-serving spaceframe and design; that would allow for the specific ship and her general class to disappear soon after the 23rd century, thereby preserving the "hero status" rather than diluting it with lots and lots of longer-serving sister ships.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Timo]

Regarding this one:

A sailor once told me that it is extremely bad luck to re-name a ship.

There's an obvious factual basis to that: if a ship is re-sold for the umpteenth time, she's probably an old scow and a shipwreck waiting to happen. But renaming happens basically every time a ship changes ownership; the superstition against renaming is probably specific to old military sailing ships, which were less often sold forward and seldom had any life left after scheduled service. And militaries today seldom rename their vessels as long as those remain in service.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[T'Girl]

capable of constructing ships like Excelsior...so why would they build a new starship using an outdated design like that of the refit Enterprise?

The Excelsior was the first time we saw her a "NX," perhaps indicting a experimental design, a trans-warp technology demonstrator. It wasn't until TUC that she appeared as a ship in regular service, apparently without the trans-warp drive. There is no telling when Starfleet began to produce more Excelsiors, the Enterprise-B (from GEN) easily might have been the second ship in the class.

Starfleet continued to build Constitution/Enterprise class starships because they were a proven design. A new "Enterprise Refit Style" ship, constructed with the updated design and updated equipment would in no way be "outdated." Kirk's final log entry stated that even after he stopped being the captain of the Enterprise-A, that a new captain would take over the ship's mission. The use of that design by Starfleet continued for years to come.

Kirk:
This is the final cruise of the Starship Enterprise under my command.
This ship and her history will shortly become the care of another crew.

 

[Timo]

...Or perhaps the fact that Kirk was wrong about the fate of his own Constitution-refit vessel reflects the more general reality where Starfleet gave up the use of this ship type immediately after the closing credits of TUC?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Vance]

...Or perhaps the fact that Kirk was wrong about the fate of his own Constitution-refit vessel reflects the more general reality where Starfleet gave up the use of this ship type immediately after the closing credits of TUC?

Actually, if we're going to be 'harsh with canon' here, let's point out one thing. We are never told at any point that the Constitution (U) class was retired. In fact, we do see a wreck of one at Wolf 359.

Now, from a practical standpoint, the Excelsior class replaced and phased-out the Constitution class in its overall function, and ran well for the better part of 80 years. However, we're never told that the design is retired. Absence of evidence is not, after all, evidence of absence.

Behind the scenes we know why the Constitution isn't shown again. The TNG producers didn't want their hero ship (1701-D) to be juxtaposed with the classic girl's lines. So that's what kept the classic girl out of shot for the most part from TNG onward.

All we really know is that only one Constitution class, in her original configuration, remains in museum state by the time of "Relics". The ship hull design may actually still be as common as the Miranda (in universe) and performing various duties.. but the production of the show simply didn't let the audience see it much.

 

[Timo]

Absence of evidence is not, after all, evidence of absence.

Except in the statistical sense. Which usually is the only sense that matters.

All we really know is that only one Constitution class, in her original configuration, remains in museum state by the time of "Relics".

...Whereas fifty-eight ships in their original configuration might reside in various surplus depots, and eight of them still be in active service, by the time of "Relics". And that's not counting the one at the Museum of Temporary Art, or the two in the respective Klingon and Romulan Museums of Captured Hardware from Dishonorable Weakling Foe-Wannabes. None of that would change the letter or spirit of Picard's "Oh, I know the class well enough, there's even one at the Starfleet museum where I went last August with a certain horse I know" statement.

Timo Saloniemi