Ladies: "Chakotay" vs. "The Doctor" for "Seven of Nine?"

[kimc]

May 20 said:
See, I don't think everyone really understood, not at that gut level where religious faith resides. No, it wasn't worth the risk, but they connected here when she and Janeway couldn't.

Seven was able to talk Chakotay into acting as her conduit to Janeway when the captain was too preoccupied. Chakotay was also the only one who was able to talk Janeway into letting the crew help instead of going it alone. As one of two people on the ship that Janeway relied on (Tuvok would be the other) it was only logical of Seven to appeal to Chakotay. The fact that he listened to her just means he was being a good first officer, imo.

At the end of the episode though it was Janeway Seven turned turned to to discuss her "first religious experience".

May 20 said:
I guess a better phrase would have been "inner peace". He seems to be at peace with himself. She's not; she's fighting too hard with herself to maintain her standards.

Ironically Chakotay seemed to be missing that inner peace during "Endgame". He was also off his game as a first officer. I mean, an older version of his captain shows up and he makes no effort to communicate with either one of them about what's going on? It was like his character was just along for the ride.

May 20 said:
Had they been in the Alpha Quadrant so that both of them could have had a wider selection of potential partners, I would readily concede this point. But in light of their situation, their age difference isn't as critical to me as it once was.

Convenience is not a good basis for any relationship although I'll admit some people may end up lucky.

May 20 said:
Who is ready for their first serious relationship? I wasn't, yet I thought I was, so I pursued it.

You had a ton of advantages over Seven though. You had growing up as a human; learning what works and doesn't work socially. You had time to figure out the qualities that attracted you in the opposite sex. You had girlfriends to discuss hair, makeup and luna pads () with. You also didn't have a borg chip dampening all of your emotional responses. You may have bee nervous about taking the leap but ready or not you were certainly better prepared.

May 20 said:
I don't see the Doctor as viable romantic relationship material for anyone simply because, for all his pomp, he's just too needy. He'd have to be the center of attention, and Seven certainly isn't ready for a relationship that would be so uneven in the give-and-take department.

The most beautiful Trek love story imo is the one where the Doctor and the Vidian doctor D'Nara Pel fell in love. I think the Doctor proved in that relationship that not only is he capable of looking beyond the externals and appreciating a woman for who she is warts and all but that he when cares about someone he doesn't need to be the center of the universe.

May 20 said:
Chakotay would be more balanced in that area.

Unfortunately in this case Chakotay looked like a guy in the middle of a mid-life crisis - not the most balanced period in any man's life.

 

[Scatta]

[enjoys reading May20 and kimc and snickers at the luna pads remark]

This is just a little throw-away remark after the comments that have just been made, but does C/7 strike anyone else as being very high school?

I mean, it's the guy that the women on the ship want with the gal who was put on the show for T&A, even if she was much more. It's kinda' like the most popular guy with the cheerleader.

I certainly don't see anything like they were together because they were supposed to be in either one's behavior, nor does it seem purely physical. However, I have to wonder if, even though that didn't appear to be a factor for the characters, if it wasn't one for the people making the decisions, on some level.

 

[Good Will Riker]

Scatta said:
This is just a little throw-away remark after the comments that have just been made, but does C/7 strike anyone else as being very high school?

Yes.

I mean, it's the guy that the women on the ship want with the gal who was put on the show for T&A, even if she was much more. It's kinda' like the most popular guy with the cheerleader.

And, yes. I have seen this happen quite often in real life.

 

[Scatta]

^Then again, where would we get more gorgeous people from if they decided to breed with us common folk?

 

[Good Will Riker]

^^ Speak for yourself.

 

[May 20]

kimc said:
Seven was able to talk Chakotay into acting as her conduit to Janeway when the captain was too preoccupied. Chakotay was also the only one who was able to talk Janeway into letting the crew help instead of going it alone. As one of two people on the ship that Janeway relied on (Tuvok would be the other) it was only logical of Seven to appeal to Chakotay. The fact that he listened to her just means he was being a good first officer, imo.

Sure, it was logical. She was able to make him see her point by comparing her desire to his faith. I agree that by listening to her, he was doing his job. It was the making of the connection, the spark that bonded them beyond the ship and their duties that forged part of their potential for a relationship beyond their jobs. And, no, I don't think that anyone writing during season 7 would think to build on it.

At the end of the episode though it was Janeway Seven turned turned to to discuss her "first religious experience".

Yes, she did. But that comment always struck me as a peace offering to Seven, not something that Janeway said because she really believed it. Religion and faith in the unknown isn't one of Janeway's stronger points.

Ironically Chakotay seemed to be missing that inner peace during "Endgame". He was also off his game as a first officer. I mean, an older version of his captain shows up and he makes no effort to communicate with either one of them about what's going on? It was like his character was just along for the ride.

Yeah, but by that point, he was pretty much just along for the ride. I think the writers really dropped the ball on him, especially at the end. I agree that they are mostly trying to give him a story line and that they really just dumped it into our laps.

Convenience is not a good basis for any relationship although I'll admit some people may end up lucky.

I agree. But it's happened over and over again throughout history. Back when towns consisted of 100-200 people, people still fell in love, got married, and had families. Voyager is a lot like one of those small towns. Honestly, I'm surprised there wasn't more pairing off shown, especially among the young adults who weren't already married.

You had a ton of advantages over Seven though. You had growing up as a human; learning what works and doesn't work socially. You had time to figure out the qualities that attracted you in the opposite sex. You had girlfriends to discuss hair, makeup and luna pads () with. You also didn't have a borg chip dampening all of your emotional responses. You may have bee nervous about taking the leap but ready or not you were certainly better prepared.

True.

The most beautiful Trek love story imo is the one where the Doctor and the Vidian doctor D'Nara Pel fell in love. I think the Doctor proved in that relationship that not only is he capable of looking beyond the externals and appreciating a woman for who she is warts and all but that he when cares about someone he doesn't need to be the center of the universe.

Yes, but at that point in the series, the Doctor was on a different track. At some point during season 4, he changes and becomes more self-centered. He sees Seven as his "project" (okay, so does Janeway), which makes his falling in love with her more motivated by what he can do to "fix" her. To me, their relationship is more "teacher-student" than C/7 is.

Unfortunately in this case Chakotay looked like a guy in the middle of a mid-life crisis - not the most balanced period in any man's life.

Yeah, I can see that. And I blame the writers for dumping this on us rather than trying to build something from all the clues I have seen in the previous seasons.

 

[kimc]

Scatta said:
However, I have to wonder if, even though that didn't appear to be a factor for the characters, if it wasn't one for the people making the decisions, on some level.

I'm not sure if it's that the people making the decisions had the emotional maturity of high-schoolers or that they were simply trying to appeal to that demographic but I agree there is definately some high-school mentality to the pairing.

May 20 said:
Religion and faith in the unknown isn't one of Janeway's stronger points.

Not that I imagine for a moment the writer's meant to build on it but "Janeway the scientist" did have some religious evolution earlier in the series with her experiences in "Sacred Ground" not to mention her exposure to Chakotay's beliefs. One can make the argument based on those experiences that by the time Seven came around Janeway was more receptive to the idea of a religious experience then she was at the beginning of the series.

May 20 said:
Yeah, but by that point, he was pretty much just along for the ride. I think the writers really dropped the ball on him, especially at the end. I agree that they are mostly trying to give him a story line and that they really just dumped it into our laps.

Amen!

May 20 said:

Convenience is not a good basis for any relationship although I'll admit some people may end up lucky.

I agree. But it's happened over and over again throughout history. Back when towns consisted of 100-200 people, people still fell in love, got married, and had families. Voyager is a lot like one of those small towns. Honestly, I'm surprised there wasn't more pairing off shown, especially among the young adults who weren't already married.

I've wondered about that too but then Trek has rarely done well with romantic relationships and they probably didn't think they would appeal to the demographic they were after.

May 20 said:
The most beautiful Trek love story imo is the one where the Doctor and the Vidian doctor D'Nara Pel fell in love. I think the Doctor proved in that relationship that not only is he capable of looking beyond the externals and appreciating a woman for who she is warts and all but that he when cares about someone he doesn't need to be the center of the universe.

Yes, but at that point in the series, the Doctor was on a different track. At some point during season 4, he changes and becomes more self-centered. He sees Seven as his "project" (okay, so does Janeway), which makes his falling in love with her more motivated by what he can do to "fix" her. To me, their relationship is more "teacher-student" than C/7 is.

[/QUOTE]

Is it that he sees her as a "project" or is he simply helping her by following a logical plan that made sense to them both? After all, Seven never objected to his help and seemed to value his friendship up until the final episode. I sincerely doubt she would have hesitated to tell him to stick his lesson plans where the sun doesn't shine if she wanted to.

May 20 said:
Unfortunately in this case Chakotay looked like a guy in the middle of a mid-life crisis - not the most balanced period in any man's life.

Yeah, I can see that. And I blame the writers for dumping this on us rather than trying to build something from all the clues I have seen in the previous seasons.

[/QUOTE]

The thing is I don't see them as clues. Hey, if C/7 works for you then consider yourself one of the rare lucky ones. Personally, I don't see it making it to spacedock. Seven will now have the opportunity to explore all that the Federation has to offer. I can see Chakotay as her trusted friend and advisor in a fatherly sort of way but that's about it.

 

[May 20]

Fair enough.

Honestly, I was outraged at the pairing at first. It was only after re-viewing the series as a whole in a condensed time frame (gotta love the DVDs) that I rethought my feelings about it.

While I don't love C/7 (I would have preferred J/C), I do understand it and see it as a viable option for both of them.

But if you can't debate with your friends, who can you debate with?

 

[kimc]

May 20 said:
Fair enough.

Honestly, I was outraged at the pairing at first. It was only after re-viewing the series as a whole in a condensed time frame (gotta love the DVDs) that I rethought my feelings about it.

While I don't love C/7 (I would have preferred J/C), I do understand it and see it as a viable option for both of them.

But if you can't debate with your friends, who can you debate with?

Agreed.

I see you as luckier than I am. I have the dvds but cannot bring myself to view episodes past the midpoint of Season 7. Luckily there's a ton of great fanfic out there.

 

[Scatta]

kimc said:

May 20 said:
Religion and faith in the unknown isn't one of Janeway's stronger points.

Not that I imagine for a moment the writer's meant to build on it but "Janeway the scientist" did have some religious evolution earlier in the series with her experiences in "Sacred Ground" not to mention her exposure to Chakotay's beliefs. One can make the argument based on those experiences that by the time Seven came around Janeway was more receptive to the idea of a religious experience then she was at the beginning of the series.

I've always thought of Janeway as one of those skeptics who wants to believe on some level, but isn't willing to give up her devotion to pure science and what her senses tell her. I'm refering to characters like CSI's Grissom, who seem to hope that somehow both can be true to some degree, but devote themselves to the option they're certain of.

We have that in the beginning with her openness to Chakotay's beliefs, as kimc said. Granted, she probably thinks of it as something internal and not external, but she certainly takes it as more than what her education or scans of her brain would classify it as. Then we have "Sacred Ground," as mentioned. I would also include "Coda" as a sign that she wants to believe in something because she wasn't always 100% certain that she wasn't talking to her father.

As for "The Omega Directive," Janeway and Seven may have been many things, but insincere was rarely one of them. I thought Janeway was a bit detached from the whole thing, not being able to completely share in Seven's experience, but I certainly didn't take it as her saying anything just for Seven's benefit. I think I saw her as being left out and some part of her wanting to be included in that feeling, but it could have been my imagination. I'll have to rewatch it.