Kurtzman on Any New Series Reaching 100 Episodes

[Lord Garth]

That's not easy, to be honest. Season 2 might get some spillover into season 1, and season 3 might get a couple into 2. Also hard to chip away because a lot of character episodes that were pretty essential might get lost if you do just the main DS9 arcs.

I might try to do that, but that will take time.

Do your best, but don't worry about butchering the series. It'll prove the point I'm trying to make.

 

[Jedman67]

Do your best, but don't worry about butchering the series. It'll prove the point I'm trying to make.

The point I was trying to make is that if DS9 was designed and written with the same quality of writing that went into SNW, 15 episode seasons would still make an excellent show.

 

[Lord Garth]

The point I was trying to make is that if DS9 was designed and written with the same quality of writing that went into SNW, 15 episode seasons would still make an excellent show.

Don't agree with you about SNW, but we'll put that to the side. Doesn't matter. The relevant part is this: DS9 wouldn't have been able to have gone as in-depth or have had as many twists and turns with only 50 episodes instead of 176.

 

[Jedman67]

Don't agree with you about SNW, but we'll put that to the side. Doesn't matter. The relevant part is this: DS9 wouldn't have been able to have gone as in-depth or have had as many twists and turns with only 50 episodes instead of 176.

Can't argue with that. I can say that for myself I see a 7 season show with 20+ episodes and I'm gonna nope right out there. Having watched it as a kid, as a teen and an adult I'm happy to dive back in for some of the favs but I'd be hard pressed to do that on a new-for-me show.

 

[Oddish]

50 episodes over a series lifetime seems a bit low.

 

[Uhura's Song]

20+ episodes suck. And I grew up in the era of 20+ shows.

I completely disagree.

I am the other end of the spectrum. 10 ep serialization mostly sucks.

I will take a 26 ep season over 10 any day. Even if there are a couple duds in there. There are duds in a 10 ep series as well.

Hopefully, Academy is the end of Kurtzman in charge.

 

[Uhura's Song]

In the 90s there was a new season every year that had 22-26 episodes. Now we get a new season every 2-3 years that has 10-13 episodes. To get to 100 episodes a show would have to last over a decade.

Disco hit 65. I think they had more than 10 everyvyear but this one. If COVID had not hit, they'd be close.

 

[Tuskin38]

There are duds in a 10 ep series as well.

Yea but % wise there's been less.

 

[Farscape One]

Yea but % wise there's been less.

Hardly. If anything, the percentage of duds in the serialized season is greater. MUCH greater.

As examples, look at season 2 of PICARD. Or how more than half of DISCO season 4 was just meandering about without much substance.

 

[fireproof78]

Can't argue with that. I can say that for myself I see a 7 season show with 20+ episodes and I'm gonna nope right out there. Having watched it as a kid, as a teen and an adult I'm happy to dive back in for some of the favs but I'd be hard pressed to do that on a new-for-me show.

Yup, same.

 

[Lord Garth]

I completely disagree.

I am the other end of the spectrum. 10 ep serialization mostly sucks.

I will take a 26 ep season over 10 any day. Even if there are a couple duds in there. There are duds in a 10 ep series as well.

Hopefully, Academy is the end of Kurtzman in charge.

I'm not quite sure what to make of the 2023-2024 Massacre.

 

[Oddish]

Ick. We started out with six including ST. With LD's demise, we're down to one. Maybe two if Netflix orders more Prodigy.

 

[Lord Garth]

Okay, for the Hell of it, DS9 in 50 episodes. I watched the series in the '90s, and liked it, but I wouldn't call myself a Niner. Proceed with reading my list of boiled down DS9 at your own risk. I'm covering all seven seasons over the course of five modern seasons.

Season 1: Bajor, the Cardassians, and the Maquis
1-2. "Emissary"
3. "Duet"
4. "In the Hands of the Prophets" (Kai Opaka has died off-screen)
5. "The Homecoming"
6. "The Circle"
7. "The Siege"
8. "The Maquis, Part I"
9. "The Maquis, Part II"
10. "The Collaborator"

Season 2: Introduction to the Dominion
1. "The Jem'Hadar"
2. "The Search, Part I"
3. "The Search, Part II"
4. "The Abandoned"
5. "Life Support"
6. "Heart of Stone"
7. "Improbable Cause"
8. "The Die Is Cast"
9. "Shakaar"
10. "The Adversary"

Season 3: The Klingon War & Changeling Paranoia
1-2. "The Way of the Warrior"
3. "Hippocratic Oath"
4. "Indiscretion"
5. "Homefront"
6. "Paradise Lost"
7. "For the Cause"
8. "To the Death"
9. "Broken Link"
10. "Apocalypse Now"

Season 4: Lead-Up to & Beginning of the Dominion War
1. "Rapture"
2. "The Begotten"
3. "In Purgatory's Shadow"
4. "By Inferno's Light"
5. "Call to Arms"
6. "A Time to Stand"
7. "Rocks and Shoals"
8. "Behind the Lines"
9. "Favor the Bold"
10. "Sacrifice of Angels"

Season 5: Sisko's Destiny & the End of the Dominion War
1. "Waltz"
2. "Tears of the Prophets"
3. "Image in the Sand"
4. "Shadows and Symbols"
5. "Penumbra"
6. "Til Death Do Us Part"
7. "Strange Bedfellows"
8. "The Changing Face of Evil"
9-10. "What You Leave Behind"

DS9 in 50 episodes. So much left out. But gets right down to the bone. Is this a better series? I think not. 10-episode seasons aren't better, IMO. 13 episodes, I could live with. Not great, but I could (and have) lived with it. Five seasons feels too rushed. Seven seasons works better. Now this is the part where people can either agree with me, disagree with me, or say, "You have a point, but... " Take your pick.

For those wondering the reasoning behind where I stopped and started seasons: Modern serialized seasons have their main stories end that with that season. Which is why I chose to end "Season 3" with "Apocalypse Rising". With "Season 4", I made it the real DS9's mid-S5 to mid-S6, and decided Sisko retaking the station was a good stopping point.

And, yes, I know I made a ton of tough cuts. Hopefully you agree with me that these shouldn't have been cut. But hey. "10 episodes are better!" and "We only need five seasons!"

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

Hopefully, Academy is the end of Kurtzman in charge.

This isn't a Kurtzman thing, it's a the way things are everywhere thing.

 

[Farscape One]

Okay, for the Hell of it, DS9 in 50 episodes. I watched the series in the '90s, and liked it, but I wouldn't call myself a Niner. Proceed with reading my list of boiled down DS9 at your own risk. I'm covering all seven seasons over the course of five modern seasons.

Season 1: Bajor, the Cardassians, and the Maquis
1-2. "Emissary"
3. "Duet"
4. "In the Hands of the Prophets" (Kai Opaka has died off-screen)
5. "The Homecoming"
6. "The Circle"
7. "The Siege"
8. "The Maquis, Part I"
9. "The Maquis, Part II"
10. "The Collaborator"

Season 2: Introduction to the Dominion
1. "The Jem'Hadar"
2. "The Search, Part I"
3. "The Search, Part II"
4. "The Abandoned"
5. "Life Support"
6. "Heart of Stone"
7. "Improbable Cause"
8. "The Die Is Cast"
9. "Shakaar"
10. "The Adversary"

Season 3: The Klingon War & Changeling Paranoia
1-2. "The Way of the Warrior"
3. "Hippocratic Oath"
4. "Indiscretion"
5. "Homefront"
6. "Paradise Lost"
7. "For the Cause"
8. "To the Death"
9. "Broken Link"
10. "Apocalypse Now"

Season 4: Lead-Up to & Beginning of the Dominion War
1. "Rapture"
2. "The Begotten"
3. "In Purgatory's Shadow"
4. "By Inferno's Light"
5. "Call to Arms"
6. "A Time to Stand"
7. "Rocks and Shoals"
8. "Behind the Lines"
9. "Favor the Bold"
10. "Sacrifice of Angels"

Season 5: Sisko's Destiny & the End of the Dominion War
1. "Waltz"
2. "Tears of the Prophets"
3. "Image in the Sand"
4. "Shadows and Symbols"
5. "Penumbra"
6. "Til Death Do Us Part"
7. "Strange Bedfellows"
8. "The Changing Face of Evil"
9-10. "What You Leave Behind"

DS9 in 50 episodes. So much left out. But gets right down to the bone. Is this a better series? I think not. 10-episode seasons aren't better, IMO. 13 episodes, I could live with. Not great, but I could (and have) lived with it. Five seasons feels too rushed. Seven seasons works better. Now this is the part where people can either agree with me, disagree with me, or say, "You have a point, but... " Take your pick.

For those wondering the reasoning behind where I stopped and started seasons: Modern serialized seasons have their main stories end that with that season. Which is why I chose to end "Season 3" with "Apocalypse Rising". With "Season 4", I made it the real DS9's mid-S5 to mid-S6, and decided Sisko retaking the station was a good stopping point.

And, yes, I know I made a ton of tough cuts. Hopefully you agree with me that these shouldn't have been cut. But hey. "10 episodes are better!" and "We only need five seasons!"

I appreciate the effort, and while this does get the barest bones in of the arcs... a LOT of flavor of the series and its cornerstones are either severely limited or almost completely missing, especially when it comes to the relationships.

Ben and Jake. Miles and Julian. Kira's journey of moving past her hatred of Cardassians and growth in general. Odo and Quark.

This list illustrates precisely why a series with so few episodes being a slave to season long arcs does it more a disservice than help it... particularly if the season long story doesn't at least stick the landing.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I watch a show because I am invested in the characters. I like getting to know them.

I'm pretty sure I used this example before but I'll do it again... SUPERNATURAL was great at having a season long arc, but also had enough room to breath to not only give the characters more to do, but for the show to be fun. It's how we got episodes like "Monster Movie", "Changing Channels", "THE FRENCH MISTAKE", and "SCOOBYNATURAL".

That's a key thing that's missing from season arcs... the fun.

 

[Tosk]

Sometimes it feels like modern seasons (and the audience itself) is just all about racing to the finish line. The attitude of "if it doesn't contribute to the arc it's filler and a waste of time" that some people have. (Not all, just some!)

The opposite of how I best enjoy/ed Trek, personally. Back in the days of waiting 'til TNG/DS9 and then DS9/VOY came out on CIC VHS, relishing those two episodes of each until the next month. Good times.

Nostalgia? Sure, probably a bit. But I'm talking about spending time with characters in situations that aren't just about getting to the reveal/twist/big finale.

Edit: Sounds like I'm complaining. Think of it more like reminiscing.

 

[Lord Garth]

The next experiment will be DS9 as five 13-episode seasons. More-or-less. Plus, I'll combine "Inquisition" and "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges" to make up two halves of a hypothetical DS9 Section 31 TV Movie.

EDIT: Followed by an experiment where I put together a list of 50 purely episodic DS9 episodes, that are character-driven but not arc-based.

 

[ananta]

The point I was trying to make is that if DS9 was designed and written with the same quality of writing that went into SNW, 15 episode seasons would still make an excellent show.

You think the quality of writing on SNW is better than DS9? That is a hot take.

 

[Oddish]

The nice thing about living in the days of streaming is that if you don't like the new way, you can stream the older stuff. You can watch a different Trek a day for 2-1/2 years without repeats.

 

[Tosk]

The other nice thing about streaming is that you can watch both old and new Trek relatively easily (more or less), and then voice your opinions about it, good or bad, on a message board.