kosh said WHAT!? Seriouslly?? WTF?!

[Jan]

Which episode would you replace? Or really, why be so obsessed with this one thing? Why not worry about our not seeing the Dilgar War? Both are equally unimportant to the slice of history that is B5. I'll agree that the "Why Babylon 5" exchange is completely clumsey in 'The Gathering' but it gave us all the information we needed.

Jan

 

[Kegg]

Which episode would you replace?

Any number of episodes from the first or fifth seasons in particular would be likely candidates. A B-plot would also work; and then again there's the other option I pointed out.

Or really, why be so obsessed with this one thing? Why not worry about our not seeing the Dilgar War?

Worry about what, exactly? We know who the Dilgar were, and more or less what their aims are. We also got an episode on the subject.

Both are equally unimportant to the slice of history that is B5.

In the same way who blew up the Twin Towers is irrelevant to the building of the Freedom Tower. I'll remind you it's not even stated people don't know who percipitated the attacks - all we know is somebody did and it's brushed under the rug. It just happened and because it only happened to justify the title it is of no importance at all.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

^The easiest solution to Kegg's exposition conundrum is to tie the sabotage, or sabatage as Shatner would say, of the previous Babylon stations to one of the Earth conspiracy groups, like Homeguard or the dropped Bureau 13, or to the fringe Minbari clan the Wind Swords.

I like that it is the Shadows who try to destroy Babylon 4 since they recognize it for what it was (or will be). The Shadows easily could've been tied to the destruction of the other previous Babylon stations with a line of dialogue. For instance, the Shadows know that a Babylon station will be sent back in time, but they don't know which one so they keep trying to blow them all up.

Nevertheless, the destruction and disappearance of the previous Babylon stations is merely a quick way to convey to the audience that Babylon 5 itself is in a precarious situation.

 

[Hermiod]

The previous Babylon stations needed to blow up because he wanted the show to be called Babylon 5. That they blew up is a rather major plot point brushed under the carpet with the vague 'yeah, forces who didn't like the idea.'

The universe works in mysterious ways and also ways that are awfully conveinent for the writer, this is one of the latter.

So the question is, given that there are only about 42 minutes available per episode exactly where would you have put that bit of unnecessary exposition? What would you have removed to make room for it? A regular complaint people make about B5 is the amount of exposition contained in dialogue. Where would you have added this and what would it have contributed to that episode?

I always just figured Babylon's 1, 2 and 3 were of the same design as Babylon 4. The Shadows' allies recognised them as the station their bosses enemies used and destroyed them.

 

[Neroon]

Or really, why be so obsessed with this one thing? Why not worry about our not seeing the Dilgar War?

Worry about what, exactly? We know who the Dilgar were, and more or less what their aims are. We also got an episode on the subject.

Not really. We got an episode in which one of the man characters was a Dilgar but not much of anything about the species or its society or the reasons behind the war in the first place. Outside of that and a few oblique references to "the Dilgar", that's what we got.

Both are equally unimportant to the slice of history that is B5.

In the same way who blew up the Twin Towers is irrelevant to the building of the Freedom Tower. I'll remind you it's not even stated people don't know who percipitated the attacks - all we know is somebody did and it's brushed under the rug. It just happened and because it only happened to justify the title it is of no importance at all.

I think Jan is right on this question of the identity of who blew those stations up. Granted, it's a curiosity and maybe an intriguing storyline could be crafted around that identity. Thing is in the landscape of what we got it wasn't a necessary plot point. All that mattered was that it be made clear the station at the heart of the series struggled to ever be built, to survive. That there was opposition from the very start. The fact that the 5th Babylon station exists at all is no small miracle. The specifics behind that, while possibly interesting would not advance the story but be simply filler for relatively inconsequential gaps.

It wasn't a a convenience that JMS trotted out to avoid something else. It was one building block he used in the story's creation.

 

[Kegg]

Not really. We got an episode in which one of the man characters was a Dilgar but not much of anything about the species or its society or the reasons behind the war in the first place. Outside of that and a few oblique references to "the Dilgar", that's what we got.

Let me phrase it this way:

Q: Who started the Dilgar War?
A: The Dilgar.

Q: Who blew up Babylon, Babylon 2 and Babylon 3?
A: Uhh... not the Shadows?

That sums it up rather nicely. Could the Dilgar War have been done in greater detail? Yes. As I observed in the GodBen thread, it was mostly sidelined because it was a Larry DiTillio detail, after all. But we know the broad outline, and there's no question as fundamental as the destruction of the Babylon stations that that aspect lacks, as it were. And, of course, it did get an entire episode which used the conflict as a backdrop.

It wasn't a a convenience that JMS trotted out to avoid something else.

Ah, but it was a justification for the name. Which is why it is exposited as such in the pilot.

 

[Reverend]

Well since it was humanity's victory against the Dilgar that propelled the Earth Alliance into the Minbari War and basically shaped the EA's almost Imperialist stance on foreign policy, I'd say it's exactly as fundamental to the back story as B1, B2 & B3. The details aren't important, it's enough that it happened.

As I said before, if the identities of the ones behind the sabotage was vital to the plot then JMS would have disclosed it. He didn't, therefore it doesn't matter. Maybe it wasn't anything to do with politics at all. Construction worker going postal? Industrial sabotage from a rival mega-corporation that lost out on a bid? Insurance fraud? Who cares?!

 

[Neroon]

That sums it up rather nicely. Could the Dilgar War have been done in greater detail? Yes. As I observed in the GodBen thread, it was mostly sidelined because it was a Larry DiTillio detail, after all. But we know the broad outline, and there's no question as fundamental as the destruction of the Babylon stations that that aspect lacks, as it were. And, of course, it did get an entire episode which used the conflict as a backdrop.

All that we have here is a matter of preference. You feel that was a fundamental hole not explaining who destroyed those stations. I and others feel it was a non-essential detail for the existing story. When there is such a divergence purely on preferential grounds, it doesn't strike me as valid substance for labeling it a fundamental flaw. It's a case of "diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks". Nobody's right or wrong. We just have our own way of looking at that part of the story.

Maybe it wasn't anything to do with politics at all. Construction worker going postal? Industrial sabotage from a rival mega-corporation that lost out on a bid? Insurance fraud? Who cares?!

My money's on Toyota having made the fusion reactor accelerators.

 

[Chris_Johnston]

...where they take away the horrible guitars in the beginning,

Actually, being a fan of Stewart Copeland's music from The Equalizer, that's what grabbed my attention right at the start of the pilot, and made me come back for the series.
Imagine my subsequent disappointment.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

...where they take away the horrible guitars in the beginning,

Actually, being a fan of Stewart Copeland's music from The Equalizer, that's what grabbed my attention right at the start of the pilot, and made me come back for the series.
Imagine my subsequent disappointment.

Count me in as one of those that like Stewart Copeland's score for "The Gathering."

 

[Reverend]

It had it's moments, but I can't see it really fitting in with the tone of the show as it evolved. But then to be fair, how can I after 5 years of Franke?

 

[StarshipDefiant]

I never caught the reference, even after I knew where to look for it, it wasn't until someone all out said it to me that I was like "Oh, yeah..."

As for the station, I thought someone answered to who destroyed what, but for an answer? It didn't need an entire episode, a line of dialogue, especially in the episodes directly pertaining to the existance of B5, or even showing B4, when Sinclair and Garibaldi were on the station and talking to the CO, and he was saying all hell is going loose, he could have said something like "We know it's not the Grigari (random name), because there's no signs of Iron Emissions (random technobabble) anywhere near the station..."

Anyhoo, as other's said I guess it's mostly trivial, but the kind of trival that could have easily been answered.

 

[Harvey]

I have to say, I find it a tad unbelievable that the Earth Alliance never found out who was responsible for the destruction of the first three Babylon stations. I can buy one mysterious station destruction, but three in a row? Generally terrorist attacks don't happen without someone taking the credit. If nobody is taking the credit, that seems to limit the number of suspects.

And if the Earth Alliance did know who was responsible (say, fringe Minbari terrorists) and didn't want that information released, you would think someone would at least come up with a convincing group to blame instead.

 

[Jan]

^^ They probably did. It just never came up in conversation 8-10 years later on the fifth station. Rather, it never came up in the documentary that was made of the Babylon 5 story.

Jan

 

[Lindley]

The latter actually seems less likely than the former.

 

[JoeD80]

Legend has it that JMS thunk up a 5 year plan in the beginning in the shower (Very Emmett Brown.) which had Sinclair doubling up as both being valen and then returning back to the future (told you.) to found the interstellar alliance and marry Delenn.

No notes that we have seen show Sinclair returning to the future after becoming Valen, and it was Sinclair and Delenn's son that founded the Alliance in the notes that we did get to see.