Kobayashi Maru (spoilers)

[RookieBatman]

I figured out the Keyser Soze thing pretty much right away. At the end, I was like, "Where's the big shocking twist everyone talks about?"

Yeah, me too. Except, while you probably saw it back in the day, I saw it for the first time pretty recently, so I constantly wonder whether the only reason I was so sure the whole time was that I had read it on the 'net and then forgot about it, but my subconscious tipped me off, or if all the constant remarks of "Kevin Spacey is teh kewlest in that movie" just made my mind zero in on him. Who knows. Either way, it kinda damaged my opinion of Bryan Singer (who I wasn't crazy about anyway), because it's kinda hard to like a movie built around its twist ending when you've seen it coming the whole time.

The whole movie falls apart because of it. The Usual Suspects was entertaining when I first saw it as a teenager, but the logic of the movie just disintegrates because of the so-called twist. The middle is just muddled and not well put together, which is actually the problem with a lot of Singer's movies. The middle always seems to drag longer than it should and the beginning seems rushed with the ending either coming too fast or coming too slow. That's my major beef with Singer is that he doesn't seem to have a good sense of pacing. From his X-Men movies to Superman Returns, Singer's films seem a bit lopsided in terms of story distribution.

This is really going out on a limb here, but can somebody, anybody, tell me that I'm not the one and only person on Earth who liked X-Men 3 better than the Singer ones?

And I don't quite get what the big deal is about Kevin Spacey either.

On that we have full agreement. And might I add that I thought his Lex Luthor was a total joke.

Yeah, he was just playing a darker version of Gene Hackman's Lex. It just didn't convey the threat that Luthor can be.

It wasn't even that it was darker. It's that Spacey's idea of "threatening" was suddenly shouting really loudly and just kind of acting like a schoolyard bully. Luthor should be much more cool and collected; in control of the situation and himself. Spacey's Luthor lost it far too often.
I noticed that in M:I3, there's a similar scene to one in S:R where the villain is beating up the completely helpless hero. Compare the way the two actors play this scene. Spacey plays it like the little bully who needs to beat Superman up to feel like a man. Hoffman plays it like he's been in total control the whole time and this is just another manifestation of that. Hoffman was a ton more menacing, in my opinion (not that I'm saying he should've played Luthor, just that Spacey did a bad job).

Then again, the movies always miss the boat on Luthor's character. I like my Lex to be the smartest man on Earth, a brilliant scientist whose used his inventions to become the richest man in Metropolis who is jealous of Superman because of his huge ego. Someone that can woo you then stab you in the back.

In defense of the fine Hackman version, I should point out that this version of Luthor did not exist at the time of Superman: the Movie.

 

[Turtletrekker]

This is really going out on a limb here, but can somebody, anybody, tell me that I'm not the one and only person on Earth who liked X-Men 3 better than the Singer ones?

Personally, I try to block all memory of X3 from my mind, but I still occasionally have nightmares...

 

[Christopher]

And I don't quite get what the big deal is about Kevin Spacey either.

On that we have full agreement. And might I add that I thought his Lex Luthor was a total joke.

His Luthor wasn't even funny enough to be a joke. It was just lame. Although I blame that on Singer, both for making the mistake of copying the old movies' two-bit version of Luthor and for having all his cast downplay everything as much as possible. The only thing that made the Reeve movies' Luthor work was Hackman's zany performance; take that away and there's no there there.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

It wasn't even that it was darker. It's that Spacey's idea of "threatening" was suddenly shouting really loudly and just kind of acting like a schoolyard bully. Luthor should be much more cool and collected; in control of the situation and himself. Spacey's Luthor lost it far too often.
I noticed that in M:I3, there's a similar scene to one in S:R where the villain is beating up the completely helpless hero. Compare the way the two actors play this scene. Spacey plays it like the little bully who needs to beat Superman up to feel like a man. Hoffman plays it like he's been in total control the whole time and this is just another manifestation of that. Hoffman was a ton more menacing, in my opinion (not that I'm saying he should've played Luthor, just that Spacey did a bad job).

Yes a calm villain is scarier than an out-of-control one. Fo' sure.

Then again, the movies always miss the boat on Luthor's character. I like my Lex to be the smartest man on Earth, a brilliant scientist whose used his inventions to become the richest man in Metropolis who is jealous of Superman because of his huge ego. Someone that can woo you then stab you in the back.

In defense of the fine Hackman version, I should point out that this version of Luthor did not exist at the time of Superman: the Movie.

Actually, he did but not the version we're now familiar with through Byrne's reboot, Smallville and Birthright.

The first reference to a LexCorp goes back to Elliot S! Maggin's run in the 70s (the issue in which the reference was made is collected in the Superman in the 70s TPB). At the time Superman: The Movie was being conceived, written and made, Luthor was already a menacing scientist who built a fortune under a variety of aliases through his inventions. He used that fortune to build the various devices and suits he used in his fight with Superman.

Elliot S! Maggin: Fave foe was always Luthor. Still is. And damn! I wish someone somewhere would give me credit for creating Lexcorp! (http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=5834)

Maggin had also given more depth to Luthor and his fight with Superman, making him a real threat and not some comical buffoon like the Hackman version. The 70s-era (Bronze Age) Luthor had some bite to him by the time Superman: The Movie was made.

His Luthor wasn't even funny enough to be a joke. It was just lame. Although I blame that on Singer, both for making the mistake of copying the old movies' two-bit version of Luthor and for having all his cast downplay everything as much as possible. The only thing that made the Reeve movies' Luthor work was Hackman's zany performance; take that away and there's no there there.

Fo' sure. It's like all the actors were being a bit too subtle with their performances, except for Spacey who goes ape shit in some of his scenes.

 

[Stevil2001]

I liked Spacey's Luthor... but then, I really liked Hackman's, too. Which is odd, because generally I think the definitive Luthor is Clancy Brown in the 1990s cartoon, but Hackman is able to sell me on it somehow.

 

[Christopher]

Hackman works as Luthor the way Adam West works as Batman -- an entertaining, comic take that has to be treated as entirely separate from the "real" version of the character.

Clancy Brown is definitive, but what's surprising is how many good Luthors there have been over the years. Not just Brown, but Sherman Howard, John Shea, Michael Rosenbaum, James Marsters, and Hackman in his own alternate way. The only really bad Luthors have been Scott Wells in the first season of the '88 Superboy and Powers Boothe in Brainiac Attacks. Spacey's just sort of mediocre.

 

[JD]

This is really going out on a limb here, but can somebody, anybody, tell me that I'm not the one and only person on Earth who liked X-Men 3 better than the Singer ones?

I don't know if I neccissarily liked it more than the first two, but I did really like X3. I don't really get why so many people hate it, personally I've never really seen anything major wrong with it. But for some reason I do tend to have trouble judging acting and writing sometimes, unless of course it's really, really bad, then I can usually tell.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Clancy Brown is definitive, but what's surprising is how many good Luthors there have been over the years. Not just Brown, but Sherman Howard, John Shea, Michael Rosenbaum, James Marsters, and Hackman in his own alternate way. The only really bad Luthors have been Scott Wells in the first season of the '88 Superboy and Powers Boothe in Brainiac Attacks. Spacey's just sort of mediocre.

I can't remember, was it Shea or Wells' Luthor who did this:

Spoiler: Luthor

killed the original Sherman Howard character and had plastic surgery to look like him

?

 

[Christopher]

^^Wells and Howard were the two Luthors in Adventures of Superboy, with the transition taking place pretty much as you described. Shea's Lois and Clark Luthor, I believe, was killed off after the first season but subsequently resurrected for a couple of guest appearances.

Sherman Howard went on to play the voice of a very Luthor-like character in Batman Beyond.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

Shea's Lois and Clark Luthor, I believe, was killed off after the first season but subsequently resurrected for a couple of guest appearances.

Resurrected by Tasha Yar herself, Denise Crosby as Luthor's lover/crazy scientist.

 

[Trent Roman]

^ Well, if you're going to keep popping up after being killed off, you might as well go to the expert on the subject.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Stevil2001]

Clancy Brown is definitive, but what's surprising is how many good Luthors there have been over the years. Not just Brown, but Sherman Howard, John Shea, Michael Rosenbaum, James Marsters, and Hackman in his own alternate way. The only really bad Luthors have been Scott Wells in the first season of the '88 Superboy and Powers Boothe in Brainiac Attacks. Spacey's just sort of mediocre.

I thought James Marsters was mediocre myself. The whole time I was thinking This is all right... but would be thirty times as good if they had gotten Clancy Brown. Actually, that went for most of the cast of that cartoon vs. their 1990s counterparts.

I'd complain about how off-topic we are, but I'm finding Lex Luthor much more interesting than Kobayashi Maru.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Well, if you're going to keep popping up after being killed off, you might as well go to the expert on the subject.

Speaking of which, I totally love that bit in Q-Squared when Tasha from 'Track A' (which is a variant of the normal Trekverse but with a few minor differences) sees her counterpart from 'Track C' (a version of "Yesterday's Enterprise"'s alternate timeline). Tasha-A's reaction is hilarious.

 

[KRAD]

Actually, that went for most of the cast of that cartoon vs. their 1990s counterparts.

Agreed 100%. I liked Doomsday, but in a one-to-one comparison, the Timm-Dini voices were better every single time.

 

[Christopher]

I dunno... I think Adam Wylie's Jimmy Olsen was at least as good as David Kaufman's, certainly more nuanced. And who did Perry in Doomsday? Ray Wise? He was pretty good, and I never cared for George Dzundza in the role.

 

[KRAD]

^ I thought Dzundza was just fine, although to my mind the definitive Perry is Lane Smith....

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ I thought Dzundza was just fine, although to my mind the definitive Perry is Lane Smith....

To my mind, George Dzundza will always be Max Greevey.

My favorite Perry White is Jackie Cooper.

 

[Christopher]

Lane Smith was fun, but he was kind of a revisionist Perry White.

I liked Stanley Ralph Ross as Perry in the 1988 Ruby-Spears animated series. He was a good gruff Perry, and it was wild to have one of the main writers from the Adam West Batman and the Lynda Carter Wonder Woman playing a regular character in a Superman series.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I can't remember, was it Shea or Wells' Luthor who did this

Scott Wells was Luthor in "Superboy" and also did the episode where Lex lost his hair, due to Superboy. Sherman Howard took over the character in Season Two, supposedly having had plastic surgery.

Scott Wells then vanished into obscurity (and rehab?). IMDb says he's only played stand-ins and extras ever since, IIRC.

 

[RookieBatman]

This is really going out on a limb here, but can somebody, anybody, tell me that I'm not the one and only person on Earth who liked X-Men 3 better than the Singer ones?

I don't know if I neccissarily liked it more than the first two, but I did really like X3. I don't really get why so many people hate it, personally I've never really seen anything major wrong with it. But for some reason I do tend to have trouble judging acting and writing sometimes, unless of course it's really, really bad, then I can usually tell.

Well, at least that's something. I wouldn't say that I'm a tremendous judge of acting or writing or anything, the only thing I care to judge about X-Men 3 is that I was severely entertained by it.

As for Luthors, I'll cast my vote for John Shea as well. He was definitely one that was able to be smoothly persuasive and coldly menacing at the same time.