Klingon K'Tinga Size Question

[CuttingEdge100]

I noticed something about the D-7M K'Tinga... it is actually often listed as being shorter than the D-7 (D-7 = 228 m, D-7M = 214).

It doesn't really make sense as to the best of my knowledge they have virtually the same shape, additionally the K'Tinga has longer nacelles (Gene Roddenberry even admitted this in the TMP novel) -- if anything the K'Tinga should be longer, no?


CuttingEdge100

 

[GodThingFormerly]

-- if anything the K'Tinga should be longer, no?

Why? It could be that the Klingons placed combat performance considerations above that of mission flexibility for the K't'inga Class, so the continuing miniaturization of the relevant spacecraft technologies permitted them to slightly shrink the hull thus improving the vehicle's mass ratio for impulse - and possibly warp - maneuvering as well as presenting a smaller target to enemy weapons. All else being equal, a smaller surface area would also (presumably) improve deflector shield efficiency.

TGT

 

[Timo]

This assumes that the TMP ships aren't refits of the TOS ships. Which is a realistic assumption, but at odds with the somewhat less realistic ambience of TMP where the Enterprise indeed had undergone a shape- and size-altering refit.

Then again, if Starfleet can change the dimensions of all the Enterprise components, Klingons should be allowed to shrink every component of their corresponding ship, too...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[GodThingFormerly]

Then again, if Starfleet can change the dimensions of all the Enterprise components, Klingons should be allowed to shrink every component of their corresponding ship, too...

The K't'inga cruisers could have been built from the scratch (for all we know), as opposed to being refits of the TOS-era ships.

TGT

 

[Timo]

As said, that would be realism - but we already have to cope with the fantasy of the TMP refit of NCC-1701...

Personally, and given the ballast of modern Trek, I like to believe in Klingons operating rather ancient ships and tinkering with them on a House-by-House basis. For the K't'inga, this might go either way: they could be externally customized older D-7 types (which brings about the scaling issue), or they could be externally largely unaltered old or modern types parallel to the TOS D-7 (which allows for any size we wish to believe in).

Really, I can even live with the idea that the K't'inga exterior dates back to the 2150s and ENT "Unexpected". There's something appealing about the idea of warships that are centuries old not merely by design, but by actual structure as well...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[USS KG5]

I do enjoy your posts Timo but is the repetition three times for emphasis??

 

[Timo]

Holy saints, Batman! Good thing the current bbs has a delete function... Now I only waste one message slot on the issue, and you another, instead of a total of four wasted.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Christopher]

Comparing the D7 diagram in The Making of Star Trek to the K'tinga in the TMP Blueprints, my impression is that the forward bulb is a little bit shorter front-to-back. Otherwise, the proportions seem about the same, including the nacelles (the TMP novelization is not canonical; even Roddenberry didn't treat it as such, and he wrote it). Perhaps the measurements for the D7 simply weren't as accurate? Maybe Starfleet got better intelligence/sensor readings on the K'tinga.

 

[FalTorPan]

Maybe K't'inga's nacelles were measured in feet, and the D7's were measured in meters.

 

[USS KG5]

Holy saints, Batman! Good thing the current bbs has a delete function... Now I only waste one message slot on the issue, and you another, instead of a total of four wasted.

Timo Saloniemi

Well I figured my humourous reference to your triple post was worth a "message slot" but as it has caused offense it seems to have backfired slightly.

I merely commented in jest.

 

[GodThingFormerly]

Really, I can even live with the idea that the K't'inga exterior dates back to the 2150s and ENT "Unexpected". There's something appealing about the idea of warships that are centuries old not merely by design, but by actual structure as well...

One would expect the inevitable spacecraft/weapons technology R&D feedback loop between the UFP and Klingon Empire to make such a scenario rather unlikely (although ENT may have somehow tried to rationalize it - I wouldn't know). After all, no amount of refitting was going to make a late 19th century ironclad a realistic match for, say, a Littoral Combat Ship. Of course, in situations like this one I invariably defer to Gene Roddenberry's intentions, namely that the K't'inga Class program was at the time of ST:TMP a very recent development that greatly concerned Starfleet.

TGT

 

[Forbin]

IMHO, the K'Tingas are new-builds based on the ol' D-7 shape, not refits, and have no need to share any dimensions at all.

IMHO.

 

[BolianAuthor]

As said, that would be realism - but we already have to cope with the fantasy of the TMP refit of NCC-1701...

Personally, and given the ballast of modern Trek, I like to believe in Klingons operating rather ancient ships and tinkering with them on a House-by-House basis. For the K't'inga, this might go either way: they could be externally customized older D-7 types (which brings about the scaling issue), or they could be externally largely unaltered old or modern types parallel to the TOS D-7 (which allows for any size we wish to believe in).

Really, I can even live with the idea that the K't'inga exterior dates back to the 2150s and ENT "Unexpected". There's something appealing about the idea of warships that are centuries old not merely by design, but by actual structure as well...

Timo Saloniemi

No you don't. The refit 1701 has absolutely nothing to do with this argument... that's like saying, "Well, if the Americans just refitted the U.S.S. Nimitz, then obviously, we Russians MUST refit our Kiev-Class ships."... that makes no sense. Even if the Klingons did want to refit their fleet, to cope with a new space race or whatever, it wouldn't happen for some time... at the time of TMP, Decker told Admiral Kirk that the Enterprise was an entirely new ship... NEW... that means that she was the only currently refitted Connie out there, with presumably more to follow... and TMP was her shakedown cruise.

 

[GodThingFormerly]

No you don't. The refit 1701 has absolutely nothing to do with this argument... that's like saying, "Well, if the Americans just refitted the U.S.S. Nimitz, then obviously, we Russians MUST refit our Kiev-Class ships."... that makes no sense. Even if the Klingons did want to refit their fleet, to cope with a new space race or whatever, it wouldn't happen for some time... at the time of TMP, Decker told Admiral Kirk that the Enterprise was an entirely new ship... NEW... that means that she was the only currently refitted Connie out there, with presumably more to follow... and TMP was her shakedown cruise.

It could also be argued that Starfleet's decision to refit the NCC-1701 to such a massive extent (as opposed to commissioning an entirely new starship class which would have presumably taken more time) was precisely because of the clear and present threat posed to the UFP by the relatively sudden appearance of the K't'ingas.

TGT

 

[Christopher]

IMHO, the K'Tingas are new-builds based on the ol' D-7 shape, not refits, and have no need to share any dimensions at all.

IMHO.

Except they're a lot more faithful to the original series design than the movie Enterprise was. Indeed, I've often thought the intention was that they were supposedly the same class of ship, but we were able to make out more detail on the movie screen than we could on TV.

 

[Forbin]

IMHO, the K'Tingas are new-builds based on the ol' D-7 shape, not refits, and have no need to share any dimensions at all.

IMHO.

Except they're a lot more faithful to the original series design than the movie Enterprise was. Indeed, I've often thought the intention was that they were supposedly the same class of ship, but we were able to make out more detail on the movie screen than we could on TV.

Agreed, as a possibility. But it doesn't negate what's happening in my wee brain.

 

[RobertScorpio]

As said, that would be realism - but we already have to cope with the fantasy of the TMP refit of NCC-1701...

Personally, and given the ballast of modern Trek, I like to believe in Klingons operating rather ancient ships and tinkering with them on a House-by-House basis. For the K't'inga, this might go either way: they could be externally customized older D-7 types (which brings about the scaling issue), or they could be externally largely unaltered old or modern types parallel to the TOS D-7 (which allows for any size we wish to believe in).

Really, I can even live with the idea that the K't'inga exterior dates back to the 2150s and ENT "Unexpected". There's something appealing about the idea of warships that are centuries old not merely by design, but by actual structure as well...

Timo Saloniemi

Yep..I totally agree. And considering how the Klingons are, as a race, i could see that being the case. It would also go a long way to giving the Klingon ships a feeling if epic...historic background..ect...

Rob
scorpio

 

[CuttingEdge100]

Okay, assuming the K'Tinga had the same body size as the D-7 (not counting the nacelles)... how much longer would the nacelles make this design (The nacelles if you look at the design *are* longer)?

CuttingEdge

 

[FalTorPan]

Okay, assuming the K'Tinga had the same body size as the D-7 (not counting the nacelles)... how much longer would the nacelles make this design (The nacelles if you look at the design *are* longer)?

CuttingEdge

Are you asking how much of the ship's overall length is comprised of the portions of the nacelles that "stick out" aft from the main hull? Anyone with a scale drawing and a ruler could estimate this.

 

[RobertScorpio]

Okay, assuming the K'Tinga had the same body size as the D-7 (not counting the nacelles)... how much longer would the nacelles make this design (The nacelles if you look at the design *are* longer)?

CuttingEdge

Are you asking how much of the ship's overall length is comprised of the portions of the nacelles that "stick out" aft from the main hull? Anyone with a scale drawing and a ruler could estimate this.

I know it has a lot to do with the improvement of FX technology, but the Klingon ships in TMP just LOOK bigger to me. It may not be the best way to go, but I do remember reading that they (studio) wanted bigger ships like on Star Wars...so, in my mind, no matter what the truth is, those three klingon ships are bigger than their TOS counterparts..but are refits too...

hey..its my mind..I can have it either way I want!!!

Rob
Scorpio