Klingon Cloak... Without Honor?

[C.E. Evans]

The same thing could be said for ships encountering one another in general. Given the stated distances in some occurrences, we should not be able to see two ships squaring off together at almost point-blank range that are really supposed to be many thousands of kilometers apart.

 

[Thot Tnak]

The same thing could be said for ships encountering one another in general. Given the stated distances in some occurrences, we should not be able to see two ships squaring off together at almost point-blank range that are really supposed to be many thousands of kilometers apart.

Unless, of course, one is ramming!!!

 

[C.E. Evans]

Unless, of course, one is ramming!!!

And even then, we have to take into account that despite how dramatically it appears on screen, ramming occurs at fractions of lightspeed with impulse engines.

 

[Thot Tnak]

And even then, we have to take into account that despite how dramatically it appears on screen, ramming occurs at fractions of lightspeed with impulse engines.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Enterprise D and E have breaking thrusters or simple navigational thrusters to slow and veer away?

 

[C.E. Evans]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Enterprise D and E have breaking thrusters or simple navigational thrusters to slow and veer away?

The Enterprise-E didn't use either when she intentionally rammed the Scimitar at full impulse under Picard's command.
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=62106&fullsize=1

 

[Shaka Zulu]

The cloak is useful, but can't overcome everything. It has serious limitations. You must decloak to transport, to fire weapons, to raise shields. Your ship can travel undetected, but not much else.

They didn't actually say so as far as I remember, but my impression is that the Klingon Empire is quite a bit smaller than the Federation. Basically one race and the systems it dominates, as opposed to hundreds of races. So the Klingons with the cloak are probably still too small to prevail against the Federation.

In the TNG episode 'Unification', the cloak can allow transport through it.

 

[STEPhon IT]

Klingons having a cloaking device never felt... KLINGON to me. The race seems to embrace being badasses, and loves raising their chest up to show what kind of bad M-F'ers they truly are. I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT THE RONALD D. MOORE TNG KNUMBSKULLS, but the non-werewolf looking tyrants from STAR TREK 1966. It seems it was in their character to not be stealth but wanted alien races to look through their sensors and say, "Oh sh*t, KLINGONS!!!"

Cloaking device is more of a Romulan thing, slimy dishonorable weasels.

 

[Khaless the Unforgettable]

I don't know, it made sense for the TOS Klingons. It's the post-movies Klingons who make having one confusing.

 

[Thot Tnak]

Klingons having a cloaking device never felt... KLINGON to me. The race seems to embrace being badasses, and loves raising their chest up to show what kind of bad M-F'ers they truly are. I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT THE RONALD D. MOORE TNG KNUMBSKULLS, but the non-werewolf looking tyrants from STAR TREK 1966. It seems it was in their character to not be stealth but wanted alien races to look through their sensors and say, "Oh sh*t, KLINGONS!!!"

Cloaking device is more of a Romulan thing, slimy dishonorable weasels.

The Klingons from TOS looked like dirty Asians.

Or was it a Mongol thing?

And, yes, the Romulan Bird of Prey was the original.

 

[Ithekro]

Well if one uses Cold War analogies, the cloaking device suits the Klingons in their role as the Soviet Union, who used large numbers of submarines to counter the American and NATO allies large surface fleets.

We didn't knowingly see a Klingon crewed ship with a cloaking device until Star Trek III. We didn't really get honorable Klingons until TNG, though there are hints of it in Kruge I suppose, though he seems to not be like a "typical" Klingon like Kirk had encountered before. And he's not the ideal honorable Klingon of Worf's version of things.

 

[UnknownSample]

We're stuck with Klingons having a cloaking device because the film ST3 was going to have Romulans, then they just switched it to Klingons, but left in the cloak. Similar reason for "Klingon Birds of Prey"... when cloaks and birds of prey had been Romulan. Just thought I'd throw that in.

I suppose the cloak is unKlingon, against the Klingon self-image, anyway. Know what , so's fighting a battle in space with space ships, pressing buttons to fire light weapons, rather than hacking people in two with batleths!

"Honor" may be a concept they made up to make a brutal race of conquerors sound principled. I agree about Worf being naive about this, and having grown up embodying the ideal of it. Some people do that . They take a hypocritical belief system and make it genuine, within themselves, by believing in it.

 

[Paradise City]

I never felt the cloak was "unKlingon". It's interesting angle people have. But stealth is part of a Klingon's armory. Anyone remember the cool scenes in Birthright where Worf tutors the Klingon youngster on the art of concealment? A Klingon doesn't have to make a spectacle of himself before he plunges into battle. If the Klingon's where firing whilst cloaked as a matter of routine with a bunch of easy kills, then we can talk about the cloak being "unKlingon".

 

[Thot Tnak]

While we're talking about cloaking, the Breen developed theirs independent of both the Klingons and Romulans as well as shimmer stealth suit technology.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Those didn't match Worf's idea of Klingon honor, but supposedly he was in a minority of one there.

What specific honor rule would have been broken in each case? We seldom heard honor rules quoted, and the ones we did ("no hostages", "no resigning to imprisonment") don't apply above.

Timo Saloniemi

It's explicitly stated in that episode that the son bears the burden of his father's crime, so by Klingon honor rules, Duras is guilty, and blaming anyone else is dishonorable.

Cloaking your ship in space battles isn't any different from hunting an animal and approaching it from downwind.

 

[Khaless the Unforgettable]

Cloaking your ship in space battles isn't any different from hunting an animal and approaching it from downwind.

Actually I'd say it's completely different from that. Hunting downwind would be more akin to using a planet to hide behind until a target is close enough, at which point you engage in a fair fight, albeit with a slight advantage if you stay far back enough. In much the same way that if you get too close to, say, a deer while sneaking up on it from downwind; if you get anywhere close enough to strike them with anything but a firearm, they'll spot you and dart off.

A cloak lets you walk up to an enemy and backstab them at point-blank range before they even know what's going on. Or slip past an enemy's defenses and attack their civilian population, then disappear before they even know what happened, let alone have time to retaliate.

Those things aren't relatable at all to my eyes.

 

[Ithekro]

I don't recall Klingons ever going in to kill civilian populations without warning. Though Kor slaughtered civilians on an occupied planet as a means of quelling rebellion.

Martok even mentioned that his people had never attempted to attack Earth like the Breen had.

 

[STEPhon IT]

While we're talking about cloaking, the Breen developed theirs independent of both the Klingons and Romulans as well as shimmer stealth suit technology.

I wonder if the Breen developed that suit after watching Return of the Jedi?

 

[STEPhon IT]

I don't recall Klingons ever going in to kill civilian populations without warning. Though Kor slaughtered civilians on an occupied planet as a means of quelling rebellion.

Martok even mentioned that his people had never attempted to attack Earth like the Breen had.

The Breen are just dumber than TNG Klingons.

 

[Greg Cox]

Klingons having a cloaking device never felt... KLINGON to me. The race seems to embrace being badasses, and loves raising their chest up to show what kind of bad M-F'ers they truly are. I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT THE RONALD D. MOORE TNG KNUMBSKULLS, but the non-werewolf looking tyrants from STAR TREK 1966. It seems it was in their character to not be stealth but wanted alien races to look through their sensors and say, "Oh sh*t, KLINGONS!!!"

Cloaking device is more of a Romulan thing, slimy dishonorable weasels.

These would be the same TOS Klingons who poisoned grain shipments, planted surgically-disguised agents in the Federation bureaucracy, covertly provided firearms to primitive tribesmen, and used treachery and deceit to try to undermine the peace between Elas and Troyius? (See "Trouble with Tribbles," "A Private Little War," and "Elaan of Troyius.)

And need I even mention that weasel of a Klingon in "Friday's Child"?

TOS-era Klingons could be pretty sneaky and underhanded when they wanted to be, which was most of the time.

And that's not necessarily inconsistent with the "honor" business. Most cultures have a chasm between their highest ideas and more pragmatic concerns; that's why they call them "ideals." And you're always going to have some individuals who are more concerned with honor than others . . . especially in matters of war and politics.

The Klingons believe in "honor," but they also like to win . . ..

Or maybe it's simply that the Klingons are a predatory species. And hunters routinely use blinds and camouflage and decoys when stalking their prey. Nothing dishonorable about that.

 

[Khaless the Unforgettable]

I don't recall Klingons ever going in to kill civilian populations without warning. Though Kor slaughtered civilians on an occupied planet as a means of quelling rebellion.

Martok even mentioned that his people had never attempted to attack Earth like the Breen had.

I didn't say that I did. I was just pointing out the difference between stalking prey and having a technology that takes hunting completely out of the picture by instead just turning you into an assassin. And yes, there's a huge difference between those things.

Blinds, camouflage, and decoys don't let you walk up to someone and shiv them in the liver. Blinds, camouflage, and decoys don't let you sneak past pretty much any and all defenses, perform a surprise attack, and then allow you to escape without taking a single hit.

Cloaking devices are tools of cowards, thieves, and assassins.