Klingon-Cardassian War unanswered questions

[Niichlaus]

I've been rewatching clips of ds9 and there are a few points that are puzzling me

1) when sisko tested the detapa council and they weren't changeling after all, he told gowron so. Why did gowron still want him to hand them over anyway? Why did the klingons need them when they could of just focused their attention on invading cardassia prime? They still could install an imperial overseer anyway?

2) once proven the council weren't changeling, why did the klingons continue to cause havoc in cardassian space? What was the point? They knew the cardassian union was no threat to the alpha quadrant. Surely gowron and the high council and members of the empire would have been more pissed off with the dominion for playing them like utter fools and idiots.

3) why were the klingons attacking civilian targets in the cardassian Union? Doesn't this contractict klingon honour?

4) after martok changeling was exposed and killed, why did the klingons go on to break the ceasefire and attack alijon prime? Then only to briefly reinstate it? The episode mentions nothing of this

5) why did gul dukat join the dominion. He knew full well that the dominion were behind the klingon invasion of cardassian space?

6) Also, did the federation actually bother to tell the cardassian people that the dominion started the war, because a cardassian Gul claims he was thrilled to join the dominion?

Lots of questions unanswered....

 

[The Wormhole]

1) when sisko tested the detapa council and they weren't changeling after all, he told gowron so. Why did gowron still want him to hand them over anyway? Why did the klingons need them when they could of just focused their attention on invading cardassia prime? They still could install an imperial overseer anyway?

Conquerors don't generally keep the former political leaders alive.

2) once proven the council weren't changeling, why did the klingons continue to cause havoc in cardassian space? What was the point? They knew the cardassian union was no threat to the alpha quadrant. Surely gowron and the high council and members of the empire would have been more pissed off with the dominion for playing them like utter fools and idiots.

Gowron addresses this in Apocalypse Rising:

SISKO: If we really want to strike a blow against the Founders, we have to find a way to end this war.
GOWRON: That may not be possible.
WORF: Why not? You told us that the Martok changeling was the one who pushed for the attack on the Federation.
GOWRON: True, but if your Klingon blood wasn't so thin you'd know that once battle has begun, there can be no turning back.

3) why were the klingons attacking civilian targets in the cardassian Union? Doesn't this contractict klingon honour?

Worf addresses this in The Way of the Warrior:

BASHIR: Well that doesn't sound very honourable to me.
WORF: In war, there is nothing more honourable than victory.

4) after martok changeling was exposed and killed, why did the klingons go on to break the ceasefire and attack alijon prime? Then only to briefly reinstate it? The episode mentions nothing of this

Same answer as number 2.

5) why did gul dukat join the dominion. He knew full well that the dominion were behind the klingon invasion of cardassian space?

6) Also, did the federation actually bother to tell the cardassian people that the dominion started the war, because a cardassian Gul claims he was thrilled to join the dominion?

Yes, the Cardassians knew that, Dukat was there when it was revealed. Dukat wanted power for himself, he wanted to stage a coup and take over Cardassia. Allying with the Dominion was his means of accomplishing that goal.

 

[BigDaveX]

I've been rewatching clips of ds9 and there are a few points that are puzzling me

1) when sisko tested the detapa council and they weren't changeling after all, he told gowron so. Why did gowron still want him to hand them over anyway? Why did the klingons need them when they could of just focused their attention on invading cardassia prime? They still could install an imperial overseer anyway?

Having the Detapa Council still alive as a government-in-exile would give Cardassian civilians someone to rally around. Like Damar in the eventual Dominion War.

2) once proven the council weren't changeling, why did the klingons continue to cause havoc in cardassian space? What was the point? They knew the cardassian union was no threat to the alpha quadrant. Surely gowron and the high council and members of the empire would have been more pissed off with the dominion for playing them like utter fools and idiots.

Worf says that there had been pressure growing on Gowron to declare war on someone. The Cardassians and Romulans would have both been convenient targets after Tain's little fiasco weakened their militaries, and between the two, the Cardassians made the better target due to the Obsidian Order having been completely destroyed (the Tal Shiar by contrast were evidently still up and running, if weakened), plus the change in government providing a nice pretext.

4) after martok changeling was exposed and killed, why did the klingons go on to break the ceasefire and attack alijon prime? Then only to briefly reinstate it? The episode mentions nothing of this

5) why did gul dukat join the dominion. He knew full well that the dominion were behind the klingon invasion of cardassian space?

6) Also, did the federation actually bother to tell the cardassian people that the dominion started the war, because a cardassian Gul claims he was thrilled to join the dominion?

All these questions are based on the idea that the war between the Klingons and the Cardassians happened purely because of the Martok changeling's interference, when in fact there's every reason to believe it would have happened sooner or later regardkess. Odds are that "Martok" just made Gowron even more gung-ho about declaring war than he would already have been - especially since that was pretty much what they did with Tain's plan.

 

[USS Firefly]

Klingons are as much honorable as Romulans and Breen. With their back stabbing and the use of the cloaking device

 

[Niichlaus]

So I guess to some extent, the Klingon brutality was totally unjustifiable and Gowron never truly cared about the "safety" of the Alpha Quadrant but just did it for his own public image.

I think it was wrong for the Federation to allow the Klingons to keep their annexed territory in the Cardassian Union after the Dominion War since the Klingons were totally out of order to begin with.

 

[BigDaveX]

So I guess to some extent, the Klingon brutality was totally unjustifiable and Gowron never truly cared about the "safety" of the Alpha Quadrant but just did it for his own public image.

Pretty much - though when you're the Klingon chancellor, a bad public image generally tends to result in you ending up with a bat'leth through your chest.

I think it was wrong for the Federation to allow the Klingons to keep their annexed territory in the Cardassian Union after the Dominion War since the Klingons were totally out of order to begin with.

Perhaps, but trying to forcibly remove the Klingons would lead to the very scenario that Sisko wanted to avoid, namely a full-scale military conflict that would leave both the Federation and Klingons weakened ahead of a potential Dominion invasion (to say nothing of what might happen if the Borg showed their faces again).

 

[Farscape One]

I actually have a bigger question regarding a Klingon-Cardassian war... the Betreka Nebula incident mentioned in "THE WAY OF THE WARRIOR" that lasted 18 years.

That's a long conflict.

 

[at Quark's]

That's a long conflict.

Which happened a long time ago, according to Garak. From ENT's observer effect, we know both Cardassians and Klingons were out in space as of the mid-22nd century. So by DS9's time, this conflict could well be 2 centuries ago. Perhaps even more. Regardless, we'll probably not learn any more about it, unless new canon material pops up in any of the new series.

And we had far longer conflicts in our own past, though usually in such longer wars there were lulls. So I don't imagine the Klingons and Cardies fighting each other with all their might during the full length of those 18 years.

 

[Farscape One]

Good points. But Bashir called it the 'Betreka Nebula Incident' and lasted 18 years. Incident implies a single, sustained situation.

Maybe it was a script oversight and was supposed to be called 'Conflict' or something, but it did beg the question.

 

[at Quark's]

^ I simply interpreted it as follows There was an incident (in itself probably short-lived) that triggered a far longer conflict. It's just very sloppily referred to by Bashir. Or perhaps even responding sarcastically to Garaks assurances that relations have always been amicable. Suppose the dialog had referenced WW1 (and no, of course it doesn't fit the historic reality, but just to convey the idea):

GARAK: <...>But relations between the German and English Empires have never been anything but amicable.
BASHIR <sarcastic>: With the exception of " the Sarajevo incident"
GARAK: A minor skirmish.
BASHIR <drops his sarcasm>: That lasted four years.
GARAK: That was ages ago. Perhaps they decided they just didn't like me?

 

[USS Firefly]

I actually have a bigger question regarding a Klingon-Cardassian war... the Betreka Nebula incident mentioned in "THE WAY OF THE WARRIOR" that lasted 18 years.

That's a long conflict.

You should read "The Art of the Impossible", a great novel about the incident.

 

[Timo]

The book assumes the incident took place at the latest possible date, the nastiness ending just in time to allow for the "two decades of peace" that Bashir says the combatants have recently enjoyed. Might be it was actually centuries before that... Making Bashir the needlessly pedantic and sarcastic one there.

But I'm happier with the "eighteen plus twenty years before the present" interpretation myself. There'd be plenty of folks who would have it in living memory, too: Dukat is a suggestive example of Cardassians not aging much in decades, and we have seen ancient Klingons aplenty.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Sidewinder]

The answer to most of these questions is simple. Gowron was vain, foolish and arrogant.

He was not a good leader or tactician. He was a politician.

This all comes out again towards the end of the series in "Tacking Into The Wind" where Worf has to kill him off to make sure he stops wasting Klingon lives for his own selfish acts of glory.

 

[Timo]

How was Gowron a bad leader or tactician? He got what he wanted!

He wanted a winnable war against a Goldilocks adversary, not too strong but not utterly irrelevant, either. He got to play great general, had plenty of his subjects sent to the front lines and conveniently killed to his greater glory, and achieved a number of concrete conquests but wasn't forced to take over custodianship of an enemy homeworld, with all the implicit revolts and problems. He didn't look weak no matter who was doing the looking; old grudges with the Cardassians and the Feds were addressed neatly enough, leaving the Empire a powerful and perhaps even strengthened military and political force as we found out in the later Dominion War.

That all this didn't exactly translate into a Thousand Year Reich is beside the point. Gowron might well be remembered as one of the Greats, his defeat in a glorious and honorable duel with the famous Worf only adding to his undying glory.

...The comparison that readily comes to mind is Churchill. A warmonger with an axe to grind with an old adversary, a string of idiotic military defeats trailing behind him like the rattling chains of a troubled ghost, is wobbling on the brink of political defeat but gets his fantastic moment of glory with a further string of stubborn and ultimately fruitful military idiocy - and is thrown out of office at his moment of triumph.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[kkt]

Even while Churchill was being thrown out of office, most people respected him, even revered him, as the saviour of their country. They just wanted Labour policies to guide the UK postwar. And they did bring him back later.

 

[Sidewinder]

If Churchill were Gowron, he'd have invaded Italy first, only to be pushed out completely by the Germans.

Then, after the tide of the war turns, have Hugh Dowding or Arthur Harris lead vanity bombing campaigns against the Germans with little chance of success.

Gowron's entire reason for invading Cardassia was proven false, but he still pressed the attack anyways. Granted The Martok Founder manipulated him, but ultimately the Cardassians were pushed right into the arms of the Dominion.

 

[Timo]

Even while Churchill was being thrown out of office, most people respected him, even revered him, as the saviour of their country. They just wanted Labour policies to guide the UK postwar. And they did bring him back later.

...I doubt Gowron lost all of his popularity when he lost his office, either. It's just that he lost his pulse, too, so the bring back part didn't happen.

But never say never. Kahless returned, too!

Invading under false premises has often been a shrewd political maneuver. Say, by invading Crimea even after both the Russians and the Ottomans had agreed to everything anybody could ever hope to demand from them, France, Britain and Sardinia-Piedmont all won big time, and there was glory and wealth and influence all around, plus massive casualties that benefited all the participants politically. Even if, somewhere down the line, it meant things like Italy unifying or Russia breaking down.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

I saw Gowron mostly as a victim of Martoks popularity and his poor reaction to it rather being being a bad chancellor up until then