Kirk's worst choice...

[RobertScorpio]

Kirk and company had a history of 'freeing' people from what he believed was a stagnated way of life. Sometimes, at the end, I wondered if 'freeing' them was really the best way. The peopel who followed Val seemed fine to me. It was their way, and they seemed happy. I think Kirk's violation of the Prime Directive wasn't always a good thing....then again, he and his crew did get to show many 'naive' people how to 'love'. I guess that made it all worthwhile...

Rob
Scorpio

 

[sbk1234]

I have to say, Rob, you do come up with some great topics. (That's not sarcasm.)
on to the question.
I always felt that those poor sons-of-bitches on This Side of Paradise were totally fucked by Kirk. They were happy. Even Spock said that for the first time in his life he was truly happy. It was all ruined because Kirk didn't want to give up his ship, and to Hell with everyone else!
I know this wasn't a Prime Directive situation, but just leave these people alone! They weren't asking for help!

 

[bintak]

Lotus eaters go extinct quickly as environments are never stable nor ecologies invariant.

Those weren't mistakes J. Kirk made. He just applied a little midcourse correction to a skewed cultural trajectory he found.

 

[JiNX-01]

I would say failing to take Kahn back to Earth in irons and tossing him into a really deep pit and droping a couple of million tons of fill into it.
The guy was an ambitious tyrant and posed a threat to pretty much anybody who might cross his path ...

 

[RobertScorpio]

I have to say, Rob, you do come up with some great topics. (That's not sarcasm.)
on to the question.
I always felt that those poor sons-of-bitches on This Side of Paradise were totally fucked by Kirk. They were happy. Even Spock said that for the first time in his life he was truly happy. It was all ruined because Kirk didn't want to give up his ship, and to Hell with everyone else!
I know this wasn't a Prime Directive situation, but just leave these people alone! They weren't asking for help!

To bad he didn't have a spore or two when he fell off the bridge in Generations..might have saved his life!

Rob

 

[sbk1234]

Based on this thread, I think Picard pulling him out of the Nexus is pretty fair payback.

 

[Red Ranger]

I think Jinx-01 is correct. Exiling Khan was the worst decision Kirk ever made, as the loved ones of all those who died when Khan attacked the Enterprise would gladly attest. If Picard ever made a decision like that, the TNG haters would burn him in effigy! There's mercy and there's foolhardy!

Second worst: co-opting the Iotians in A Piece of the Action. Although I can't see what else he could've done to solve that situation, and I wonder if any starships arrived for their "cut." And of course, McCoy mucked it up by leaving the communicator behind!

Red Ranger

 

[johcomp]

What about the poor Landru followers - they all seemed happy and the "festival" rocked!

On the flip side, though - he made the right decision on Eminiar 7, stopping people from diving into various disintegration chambers whilst the ruling council played a jumped up version of Battleships!

Back on the Prime Directive Violations, isn't it a shame that they never capitalised on Bones leaving his communicator on Iotia in the hands of "intelligent and highly immitative people" - would have made a great TWOK style plot for STV maybe, with Kracko seeking revenge on Kirk for not making him "top boss"

 

[Hambone]

Back on the Prime Directive Violations, isn't it a shame that they never capitalised on Bones leaving his communicator on Iotia in the hands of "intelligent and highly immitative people" - would have made a great TWOK style plot for STV maybe, with Kracko seeking revenge on Kirk for not making him "top boss"

I believe that was one possible plotline for the DS9 episode that eventually became "Trials and Tribble-ations".

 

[Markas]

These are some great examples. I think one of Kirk's worst choices was leaving the Scalosian race to die in Wink of an Eye. The amount of times that McCoy was able to come up with an antidote to things, the idea of beaming them back to Scalos, placing a warning beacon around their planet and letting them die seems a bit callous.

 

[Vonstadt]

I would say the mess with Khan, I mean the lives it cost in the battle in TWoK and the fall out later in TSFS (i.e. the death of his own son) was pretty disasterous.

They were still dealing with the fallout of that decision in TVH to some extent.

That a pretty bad call in my opinion.

 

[Timo]

In purely numerical terms, though, that was peanuts. Only hundreds of lives at most were involved, as opposed to those decisions that dictated the fates of (non-artificial) planets. And if Kirk thought that Khan deserved a second chance, good for him - it was Khan's fault for not taking that chance. From Kirk's "Space Seed" point of view, Khan was just a somewhat survivalist fellow spacefarer, and an admirable figure of history, not (yet) the murderous madman we saw in the movie. Khan didn't really kill anybody in "Space Seed", now did he?

Regarding that movie, I would actually blame Kirk for not being more critical of this Genesis project. He seemed to be involved in it somehow, being privvy to the classified data, being Carol's liaison also in the official sense of the term, and so forth. But his security measures on the project sucked.

As for the Scalosian thing, there's no indication that Kirk effected a quarantine or anything like that. He just flew off, owing absolutely nothing to these bastards (who supposedly had technological parity with the Federation and could research their own cure if they really wanted to), but not deliberately sealing their fate, either.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[johcomp]

I have to say, Rob, you do come up with some great topics. (That's not sarcasm.)
on to the question.
I always felt that those poor sons-of-bitches on This Side of Paradise were totally fucked by Kirk. They were happy. Even Spock said that for the first time in his life he was truly happy. It was all ruined because Kirk didn't want to give up his ship, and to Hell with everyone else!
I know this wasn't a Prime Directive situation, but just leave these people alone! They weren't asking for help!

To bad he didn't have a spore or two when he fell off the bridge in Generations..might have saved his life!

Rob

I agree - they could have done wonders if the kept a regular supply of spores available at all times - would have saved quite a few lives!
McCoy: Ensign Rizzo is dying, Jim

Kirk: No problem, Bones, get him to snort some of these spores, then tell him he's an overgrown jackrabbit - then pour me one of those Mint Juleps!

Back onto the main subject, how do you think Kirk left Tyree etc on APLW, did he maintain a weapon balance between the Hillpeople and the Villagers or just warp out of orbit, hastily??

 

[Doug Otte]

In purely numerical terms, though, that was peanuts. Only hundreds of lives at most were involved, as opposed to those decisions that dictated the fates of (non-artificial) planets. And if Kirk thought that Khan deserved a second chance, good for him - it was Khan's fault for not taking that chance. From Kirk's "Space Seed" point of view, Khan was just a somewhat survivalist fellow spacefarer, and an admirable figure of history, not (yet) the murderous madman we saw in the movie. Khan didn't really kill anybody in "Space Seed", now did he?

Not for lack of trying. He tried to kill Kirk in that pressure chamber thingy, and only McGivers' intervention saved him. Also, wasn't it implied that he killed people in the 20th Century on Earth? I just watched Space Seed a few weeks ago, yet I don't remember the exact dialogue.

I believe Khan was a megalomaniac who would do whatever he needed to do to obtain power. He was always mad; Ceti Alpha V just drove him totally over the edge.

Doug

 

[Markas]

As for the Scalosian thing, there's no indication that Kirk effected a quarantine or anything like that. He just flew off, owing absolutely nothing to these bastards (who supposedly had technological parity with the Federation and could research their own cure if they really wanted to), but not deliberately sealing their fate, either.

There was no indication that Kirk quarantined them, but Deela said "[Your federation will quarantine the entire area." I think that was likely.

 

[Timo]

Not for lack of trying. He tried to kill Kirk in that pressure chamber thingy, and only McGivers' intervention saved him.

Khan had already used lethal force against Kirk and his bridge crew earlier on, by toying with life support, but had stopped short of killing. He was the master of psychological manipulation: there is no certainty that he would have needed to resort to actually following through with his death threats this time around, either.

Also, wasn't it implied that he killed people in the 20th Century on Earth? I just watched Space Seed a few weeks ago, yet I don't remember the exact dialogue.

He probably had - but judging by Kirk's defensive reaction when the matter was discussed, he would have viewed the deaths in the positive spirit of "Oh, he's a fellow soldier, and his victims probably deserved to die anyway". Scotty insisted that there were no massacres under Khan's rule, and McCoy that he launched no wars of aggression ("no wars until he was attacked"). Everybody agreed that he was a ruthless tyrant, but everybody save Spock thought that this was a good thing!

I believe Khan was a megalomaniac who would do whatever he needed to do to obtain power. He was always mad; Ceti Alpha V just drove him totally over the edge.

Possibly so. But his madness didn't truly manifest either before or during "Space Seed", so Kirk's positive judgement of his character stands valid. No doubt this positive portrayal of Khan was deliberate writer intention as well, because otherwise Kirk's decision to spare the villain's life and freedom would not have fit the moral norms of the day (that is, of the 1960s).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[JiNX-01]

Khan kept the crew alive because he needed them to help him run the ship. He want to get to a planet that he could conquer.

After he escaped from Ceta Alpha V, he went after the Genesis device. He tortured people to death on the Genesis station and ultimately used the device in an attempt to destroy Kirk (odd that it resurrected Spock but not Khan and his crew).

As was noted in Space Seed, these genetically engineered people had superior abilities and with that greater ambition. Khan didn't leave his ambitions back on Earth. Had the destruction of their settlement never occurred, the descendants of his people would have eventually gone into space and posed a grave threat to the peace.

 

[Timo]

What peace? The Feds were always at war with somebody. They didn't need the help of genetically engineered supermen for that.

How Khan turned out in ST2 should not be held against Kirk. For all we know, Sandoval and his people would have turned out to be an interstellar menace of similar scope if Kirk hadn't forced them out of the spore planet, or the people under Landru's control would have tried to take over the galaxy. Kirk handled those "supermen" or "especially empowered people" differently, but in both cases in a manner that left them satisfied with the outcome. Sandoval was happy to be "awakened" and evicted, and held no grievances towards Kirk. The people freed from Landru did not resent their banishment from paradise, either. And Khan was quite happy to go to exile, as that had been his original goal already.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Doug Otte]

Timo, thanks for your (as usual) thoughtful replies to my comments. I count on you to come up with the exact dialogue!

And, in regard to the original question (Kirk's decision regarding Khan), I too agree that it was a good one. It was frontier justice at its best.

Doug

 

[TheLonelySquire]

I have to say, Rob, you do come up with some great topics. (That's not sarcasm.)
on to the question.
I always felt that those poor sons-of-bitches on This Side of Paradise were totally fucked by Kirk. They were happy. Even Spock said that for the first time in his life he was truly happy. It was all ruined because Kirk didn't want to give up his ship, and to Hell with everyone else!
I know this wasn't a Prime Directive situation, but just leave these people alone! They weren't asking for help!

Val = Big Government. Big Government = bad for the people. Coming to the United States, 1-20-2009!