Kirks quick rise to captaincy inspired by... Horatio Nelson?

[Classic Fan]

This occured to me earlier today.

For years since TOS, people have been saying Kirk gained captain rank at a very young age, the record (unoffiically) of any other Starfleet member.

This isnt about Kirk in command uniform in the movie in the space of a couple of days or whatever, its about the actual character and his quick rise through the ranks.

Now, from what we know, Kirk assumed command of the enterprise while still very young, no details exist of this claim, onscreen at least if i remember.

In the case of Horatio Nelson, he reached the rank of captain by the age of just 20. In this instance however, it was due to the influence his father had in the Royal Navy at the time that helped him rise that quickly.

BBC.co.uk/history:
As a commander he was known for bold action, and the occasional disregard of orders from his seniors. This defiance brought him victories against the Spanish off Cape Vincent in 1797, and at the Battle of Copenhagen four years later, where he ignored orders to cease action by putting his telescope to his blind eye and claiming he couldn't see the signal.

^ Sound familiar?

Now assuming the same can now be said about George Kirk Snr now the movie is out.
His influence on Starfleet after saving so many lives after Nero invaded history, altering the timeline so as George can save the day and Kirk is born and thus starts Pikes 'sort of' fatherly figure toward James Kirk, this in turn can help Kirk raise the ranks quickly. Therefore, we get a sort of mirror of Nelsons early life in the (New part of Kirks history) fact that George helped influence Kirk by creating an almost celebrity status respect within Starfleet, kinda like Harry Potter but not.

Im just assuming James Kirk has celebrity status to Starfleet, not like Potter where everyone knows him. Its plausible.


sort of makes sense, that Roddenberry loved old historical adventure, fictional Horatio Hornblower, old naval stories etc etc. Now im assuming that the stories of Kirks early rise to captain isnt explained onscreen, if it is i cant rememeber it.

I dunno, i just thought i'd run with it.

 

[Captain Pike]

It's a reasonable assumption. Hard to really say though at this point - once I see the movie I'll have a better idea.

 

[CaptainHawk1]

This occured to me earlier today.

For years since TOS, people have been saying Kirk gained captain rank at a very young age, the record (unoffiically) of any other Starfleet member.

This isnt about Kirk in command uniform in the movie in the space of a couple of days or whatever, its about the actual character and his quick rise through the ranks.

Now, from what we know, Kirk assumed command of the enterprise while still very young, no details exist of this claim, onscreen at least if i remember.

In the case of Horatio Nelson, he reached the rank of captain by the age of just 20. In this instance however, it was due to the influence his father had in the Royal Navy at the time that helped him rise that quickly.

BBC.co.uk/history:
As a commander he was known for bold action, and the occasional disregard of orders from his seniors. This defiance brought him victories against the Spanish off Cape Vincent in 1797, and at the Battle of Copenhagen four years later, where he ignored orders to cease action by putting his telescope to his blind eye and claiming he couldn't see the signal.

^ Sound familiar?

Now assuming the same can now be said about George Kirk Snr now the movie is out.
His influence on Starfleet after saving so many lives after Nero invaded history, altering the timeline so as George can save the day and Kirk is born and thus starts Pikes 'sort of' fatherly figure toward James Kirk, this in turn can help Kirk raise the ranks quickly. Therefore, we get a sort of mirror of Nelsons early life in the (New part of Kirks history) fact that George helped influence Kirk by creating an almost celebrity status respect within Starfleet, kinda like Harry Potter but not.

Im just assuming James Kirk has celebrity status to Starfleet, not like Potter where everyone knows him. Its plausible.


sort of makes sense, that Roddenberry loved old historical adventure, fictional Horatio Hornblower, old naval stories etc etc. Now im assuming that the stories of Kirks early rise to captain isnt explained onscreen, if it is i cant rememeber it.

I dunno, i just thought i'd run with it.

It's not a bad theory at all and it wouldn't surprise me at all if GR used Admiral Nelson as a template for Kirk but I think you're getting GR confused with Nicholas Meyer as far as the Horatio Hornblower influence is concerned. Not that GR wasn't influenced by HH but I've just never heard that before and Nicholas Meyer goes on at length in interviews and on the DVD commentary of TWOK how he was influenced by HH (BTW: if you've never heard the DVD commentary for TWOK, it's fantastic and by far the best of all the films).

Another thing to consider too is that young commanding officers weren't hat uncommon in a world where the average life span was about 43. Going back further, Alexander the Great was a general by age 22.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Or you could also cite the example of Napoleon. There's a certain degree of parallelism between him and ole Jimmy T.

 

[Praetor]

Gene and company did cite Kirk as inspired by Hornblower in the writer's guides for TOS and the aborted Phase II series, so Meyer didn't just pull that out of his ass. I can dig out quotes if anyone wants.

And good theory, Classic Fan. I have a feeling you're right.

 

[Classic Fan]

I know Meyer was a hornblower fan and that was interpreted in TWOK, and yes, the commentary is by far the best i have heard aswel.

Gene and company did cite Kirk as inspired by Hornblower in the writer's guides for TOS and the aborted Phase II series, so Meyer didn't just pull that out of his ass. I can dig out quotes if anyone wants.

And good theory, Classic Fan. I have a feeling you're right.

Its only a theory that struck me, thought id run with it and see where it took me. Again, as said, there are a lot of paralells with famous naval commanders, the world over incedentally.

Young and brash, from naval families that have influence. I dont know about the new movie, waiting until the 7th, havnt read the reviews cos i want to enjoy it, but classic Trek and Kirk seem to stem from the old naval stories of valour,long tradition in the families and quick promotions etc etc.

As we didnt know anything about kirks family other than George (now George Jnr. after the movie is out), im assuming now that Kirk has a hero dad, itll be an influence on the youngsters career and would help him rise in the ranks or just get more respec or something, and the fact that now, Pike seems to be a surrogate father figure rather than 'the old captain' (according to the trailers anyway.)


I dunno, we can draw similarities to all major historical figures, but Nelson just occured to me. Remembering my school days...


Dunno if thats such a good thing.

 

[Franklin]

It's an apt comparision. But to me his rise seems loosely like the rise of Jean Luc Picard. Both were brilliant but immature and brazenly cocky at the Academy. Both quickly faced the need to mature and find purpose. Both were not yet thirty when each took over command of a ship that had lost its captain during an extreme crisis and solved the crisis. Picard was rewarded with the command of a ship. Kirk apparently is, too.

 

[Praetor]

Well, Picard was essentially meant to be an 'older Kirk' when TNG started, so it's no surprise their backstories were largely similar - brash, headstrong men with great intelligence who quickly pushed their way up the command chain.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

Well, Picard was essentially meant to be an 'older Kirk' when TNG started, so it's no surprise their backstories were largely similar - brash, headstrong men with great intelligence who quickly pushed their way up the command chain.

I used to say that both Kirk and Picard were different iterations of Hornblower. Kirk was the younger Captain Hornblower of Beat to Quarters while Picard was Lord Hornblower of the later books and stories.

 

[Praetor]

^Agreed.

 

[Franklin]

Well, Picard was essentially meant to be an 'older Kirk' when TNG started, so it's no surprise their backstories were largely similar - brash, headstrong men with great intelligence who quickly pushed their way up the command chain.

I used to say that both Kirk and Picard were different iterations of Hornblower. Kirk was the younger Captain Hornblower of Beat to Quarters while Picard was Lord Hornblower of the later books and stories.

Especially since one of them was a TNG fan, I just wonder how much Orci and Kurtzman subconsciously drew from Picard's quick rise to commanding a ship when they created Kirk's story. It does seem derivative of it (just an observation, not a judgement). Granted, it lends credibility, too. Say one was too fast, then so was the other.

 

[Cyke101]

Well, Picard was essentially meant to be an 'older Kirk' when TNG started, so it's no surprise their backstories were largely similar - brash, headstrong men with great intelligence who quickly pushed their way up the command chain.

I used to say that both Kirk and Picard were different iterations of Hornblower. Kirk was the younger Captain Hornblower of Beat to Quarters while Picard was Lord Hornblower of the later books and stories.

I would gladly agree with you, except I've yet to read a Hornblower book, or watch a movie.

I suppose it's time to start, eh?

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

Especially since one of them was a TNG fan, I just wonder how much Orci and Kurtzman subconsciously drew from Picard's quick rise to commanding a ship when they created Kirk's story. It does seem derivative of it (just an observation, not a judgement). Granted, it lends credibility, too. Say one was too fast, then so was the other.

Maybe, but Picard's "rise to command" of the Stargazer is also derivative of naval fiction as well.

 

[Data Holmes]

GR said that kirk was inspired by HH in an interview for one of the specials...

He mentioned that Pike was the "thinking man" near bust by the burdens of command, this somehow tied into the initial concept of "Wagon train to the stars" concept. Unfortunately I have no frame of reference as I've never seen wagon train... But when the network wanted a "younger, action packed captain" he went with the Hornblower model.

This was the aspect that Meyer grabbed upon for TWOK and expanded in his outings as writer and/or director, going more naval and more character, and less science and less futurism focused.

 

[Saga]

you must be reading from an 'outdated' source. the exploits of Lord Nelson are no longer cannon.

 

[npsf3000]

"Kirks quick rise to captaincy inspired by... Horatio Nelson?"

Unlikely, there is a similarity yes, but i believe that is just because they both are exceptional officers... the kind of officer that can command the flag ship of the fleet.

"James Kirk has celebrity status to Starfleet'

Not going to get him command of the enterprise - a lot of people in star fleet are following there parent's footsteps.

I think beating the Kobayashi Maru scenario is infinitely more important.

While your points are good, its not like there is a serious underlying conspiracy.

 

[Praetor]

No, classic Kirk was literally patterned on Horatio Hornblower.

From 'TMoST,' Kirk description says (p 216, paragraph four):

In many respects Kirk resembles the captain of an 18th century ship of the line - Captain Horatio Hornblower. Anyone familiar with C. S. Forrester's famous Hornblower series will quickly recognize similarities in the personalities of both men. It should not be surprising to learn that Gene Roddenberry rates Captain Horatio Hornblower as one of the all-time great adventure characters in fiction.

A shorter line appears in the writers guide for the aborted Phase II series and is reprinted in the Reeves-Stevens' book about it. It specifies that a psychological sketch for Kirk is a 'space-age Horatio Hornblower' (paraphrased.)

 

[Classic Fan]

No, classic Kirk was literally patterned on Horatio Hornblower.

From 'TMoST,' Kirk description says (p 216, paragraph four):

In many respects Kirk resembles the captain of an 18th century ship of the line - Captain Horatio Hornblower. Anyone familiar with C. S. Forrester's famous Hornblower series will quickly recognize similarities in the personalities of both men. It should not be surprising to learn that Gene Roddenberry rates Captain Horatio Hornblower as one of the all-time great adventure characters in fiction.

A shorter line appears in the writers guide for the aborted Phase II series and is reprinted in the Reeves-Stevens' book about it. It specifies that a psychological sketch for Kirk is a 'space-age Horatio Hornblower' (paraphrased.)

Cheers guys, i just thought that maybe it was a mixture of both characters, it might be, who knows what was going through the writers minds when they were writing episodes etc.

Interesting though.