Kirk's death

[JonnyQuest037]

If it's not discussed as much as Spock's death in TWOK, that's just because there's less to say, other than "It wasn't very good".

Nope. It was foolish to think that they had any hope of matching the emotional weight of Spock's death in TWOK when Kirk had had no previous connection to either Picard or Soran.

It also didn't help that the filmmakers apparently expected us to get more choked up about Data finding his cat than Captain Kirk dying.

 

[eyeresist]

Any canny producer knows that cute animals are always WIN. There should be more cats in Star Trek. Like this! -

[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DnQLI1XDzI[/yt]

[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NJQvswrSPg[/yt]



This last one's not as funny, which is perhaps why it took me a while to realise that someone had actually build a replica of the TOS Enterprise bridge - for their cats:
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjFmI9CUrW0[/yt]

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Any canny producer knows that cute animals are always WIN.

I'm not, and have never been, a cat person, so that moment was completely lost on me. I'm pretty tired of TV shows and movies that present the death of animals as being a bigger tragedy than the death of a person, quite frankly.

 

[Timby]

I think they way that Kirk died in Generations was pretty lamely done.

Oh, come on. "Bridge on the captain" is an amazing gag.

 

[Paradise City]

Kirk's death is known in my experience. I do get confusion as to whether Data died given B-4's scenes. In fact, I was slightly confused there myself watching it half thinking Data uploaded his personality to B-4 like Ira Graves uploaded his personality to Data in the 2nd season.

Kirk's death is just the cinematic equivalent of dying having fallen off the roof trying to get the TV aerial to work. It was mundane and ho-hum. It would've been better simply to send Kirk back to his own time rather than bury him under scaffolding or something.

 

[fireproof78]

I think they way that Kirk died in Generations was pretty lamely done.

Oh, come on. "Bridge on the captain" is an amazing gag.

Not that kind of bridge!!!

Kirk's death is known in my experience. I do get confusion as to whether Data died given B-4's scenes. In fact, I was slightly confused there myself watching it half thinking Data uploaded his personality to B-4 like Ira Graves uploaded his personality to Data in the 2nd season.

Kirk's death is just the cinematic equivalent of dying having fallen off the roof trying to get the TV aerial to work. It was mundane and ho-hum. It would've been better simply to send Kirk back to his own time rather than bury him under scaffolding or something.

That would be an interesting twist. I could get onboard with this.

 

[Paradise City]

If it's not discussed as much as Spock's death in TWOK, that's just because there's less to say, other than "It wasn't very good".

Nope. It was foolish to think that they had any hope of matching the emotional weight of Spock's death in TWOK when Kirk had had no previous connection to either Picard or Soran.

It also didn't help that the filmmakers apparently expected us to get more choked up about Data finding his cat than Captain Kirk dying.

The backroom cliquish nature of the TNG cast actually emerges out on screen in this film.

Kirk is no more lamented by the TNG gang than the average red shirt was when Kirk was a pup. Picard and Co are lost in their own problems and don't give a hoot that arguably the greatest hero of Starfleet history has just expired on their watch. "I'm missing my Earl Grey -- oh yeah, Kirk, died...oh, is that my chair?..what a wreck! How's spot, Data? He's cool? Good stuff. Now where's my saddle..."

It does let down the cinema goers. The TNG crew are crackin' crew but the big fall out from Kirk dyin' is what we're all here to see. Spot is one hecka of a feline but I didn't put down hard cash to see what happened to Spot..

 

[JonnyQuest037]

The backroom cliquish nature of the TNG cast actually emerges out on screen in this film.

I'd blame that on Rick Berman, Ron Moore, and Brannon Braga more than I'd blame it on anyone in the TNG cast. But at least Moore & Braga were cool enough to admit the film's flaws on the commentary.

 

[Paradise City]

The backroom cliquish nature of the TNG cast actually emerges out on screen in this film.

I'd blame that on Rick Berman, Ron Moore, and Brannon Braga more than I'd blame it on anyone in the TNG cast. But at least Moore & Braga were cool enough to admit the film's flaws on the commentary.

I don't blame the TNG cast for Generation's problems. I just think it is funny how the insular nature of the TNG ensemble comes out in this film, elbowing Kirk right out of the way.

They can get this right. They got it right in Unification and Relics. That very elegantly weaved the different generations together keeping Spock and Scott in the spotlight delivering for us some world class episodes in the process.

But I just think they got carried away in the rush of finally making a motion picture so much so that even Spot the blasted Cat's problems threatened to overshadow the after-consequences of Captain Kirk's reappearance from 'death' and his subsequent death!

 

[fireproof78]

The backroom cliquish nature of the TNG cast actually emerges out on screen in this film.

I'd blame that on Rick Berman, Ron Moore, and Brannon Braga more than I'd blame it on anyone in the TNG cast. But at least Moore & Braga were cool enough to admit the film's flaws on the commentary.

I don't blame the TNG cast for Generation's problems. I just think it is funny how the insular nature of the TNG ensemble comes out in this film, elbowing Kirk right out of the way.

They can get this right. They got it right in Unification and Relics. That very elegantly weaved the different generations together keeping Spock and Scott in the spotlight delivering for us some world class episodes in the process.

But I just think they got carried away in the rush of finally making a motion picture so much so that even Spot the blasted Cat's problems threatened to overshadow the after-consequences of Captain Kirk's reappearance from 'death' and his subsequent death!

Because Kirk's death was not the "event." The "event" was Kirk and Picard meeting, rather than them taking on a challenge together. Kirk's death was rather insignificant, as you stated, and would have been better if he had been sent back to his time or, went of exploring (like Scotty) rather than left in a shallow grave.

 

[The Old Mixer]

The thing to remember here is that prior to Picard finding Kirk in the Nexus, everyone in the TNG era thought that he'd already been dead for 78 years. It's hard to get choked up about finding out second-hand that somebody you already thought was long dead was alive after all, but just died now. I wouldn't be surprised if Picard kept mum about that, at least in the short term. The Ent-D crew had been through enough without throwing that curve ball at them.

 

[Galileo7]

Perhaps people just like to pretend it never happened. I know I do.

Agree. Generations was a senseless death for Kirk [and 1701-D ] , unlike Spock's, Data's or even J.J. Kirk's in STID.

 

[Timo]

Paint me satisfied with how Kirk died. It was fun; it was an excellent example of old soldiers fading away unnoticed; it wasn't some over-the-top piece of astounding heroism; and it doubly demolished the silly notion that Kirk would have known what he was talking about when claiming he'd die surrounded by his closest friends.

Did Jim have living relatives? At least one nephew was known to have survived the general carnage of the 23rd century, but did he breed?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[FormerLurker]

Um, Kirk said "I've always known; I'll die alone." That doesn't sound like claiming he'd die surrounded by his closest friends.

 

[Paradise City]

Yeah but guys - dying in obscurity has an intense poignancy in its own right. Even if only in a microuniverse of one. None of that was really conveyed with this film by the filmmakers. With the exception of the opening scenes, it felt that Kirk was a complete burden for the writers to be inserted anywhere. Their real enthusiasm was for writing for the TNG people; terrain they knew well and loved.

 

[Nebusj]

There's also that, at least as far as the Nexus seems to have rules, they would seem to suggest that anytime there's a real crisis someone could pop into the Nexus and pull out another copy of Kirk. He doesn't seem to be dead quite so much as having passed on to Avalon, ready for the day he's truly needed. Which would be a neat if the story were able to stick that landing. Unfortunately, Generations, story problems, twenty different subplots slumping against each other for support, too bad.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Um, Kirk said "I've always known; I'll die alone." That doesn't sound like claiming he'd die surrounded by his closest friends.

I don't know why so many fans put so much stock in this line in the first place.* When has Kirk ever demonstrated any sort of psychic or precognitive abilities? The line is simply a reflection of Kirk feeling melancholy at the beginning of STV. That's all it ever was.

Besides, unless you're in a mass tragedy, most people die alone.

*Not saying that you're one of them, Lurker.

[Digression: Ages ago, I made a fake Captain Kirk profile on MySpace (which tells you how long ago this was, I suppose). One of the lines in the bio I wrote was: "I've always known I'll die alone. Well, sometimes there's a bald British guy there with me, but 75-80% of the time, I'm alone."]

 

[FormerLurker]

Depends on the definition of alone. So many obits have some version of "He was surrounded by family at the time he passed", so I've always taken it to mean there's no one there to tell the tale, or to grieve his passing. As he'd barely met Picard, and didn't really know him at all, Kirk may have felt he was dying alone after all.

 

[HIjol]

Maybe he meant without his (ensemble) Crew and Beloved Ship?

 

[suarezguy]

If it's not discussed as much as Spock's death in TWOK, that's just because there's less to say, other than "It wasn't very good".

Nope. It was foolish to think that they had any hope of matching the emotional weight of Spock's death in TWOK when Kirk had had no previous connection to either Picard or Soran.

It also didn't help that the filmmakers apparently expected us to get more choked up about Data finding his cat than Captain Kirk dying.

The backroom cliquish nature of the TNG cast actually emerges out on screen in this film.

Kirk is no more lamented by the TNG gang than the average red shirt was when Kirk was a pup. Picard and Co are lost in their own problems and don't give a hoot that arguably the greatest hero of Starfleet history has just expired on their watch.

All the spinoffs (including the well-received DS9 crossover, aside from a bit near the end) have their characters not amazed by the original series Enterprise crew and that is, although perhaps disappointing to the viewers, believable as the events take place a century later. Would even someone in today's US military be thrilled to meet Ulysses Grant or William Sherman or Omar Bradley?

They can get this right. They got it right in Unification and Relics. That very elegantly weaved the different generations together keeping Spock and Scott in the spotlight delivering for us some world class episodes in the process.

I loved "Unification II" even though some felt it was pretty disrespectful to the original series but I thought "Relics" and Generations had a very similar, indeed somewhat dismissive, style with the crossover interactions (but again it's believable that the crew of the present would be much more concerned with solving the problems of the present).