Kirk's Celebrity Status

[Timo]

Yes, there has always been the possible interpretation that when Mitchell says "In Lieutenant Kirk's class, you either think or sink", he isn't talking about Kirk the Instructor, but Kirk the Annoyingly Perfect Classmate Who Sets Impossible Standards...

It sorta depends. There's that PSI chart stating that Mitchell made Lieutenant Commander at age 23 already; he could be that much younger than Kirk, then, although there's no particular reason to think that he's still 23 at the time of the episode. Did Kirk make Lieutenant Commander at 23?

Well, we don't know such elementary facts as when he entered the Academy or when he graduated, but in "Court Martial" we do hear him describe Finney as fellow Academy student and then go on to state that "seven years later" he himself still only held Ensign rank... And he was still Lieutenant in the "Obsession" backstory which does get dated to eleven years before the episode. But if he got promoted right after that very adventure, he'd match Mitchell's career development.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I always interpreted this line from Mitchell as sarcasm; that he and Kirk were classmates at the Academy and that Kirk just happened to be a Lieutenant (as Saavik was shown to be in Star Trek II and likewise Valeris in Star Trek VI), and further that Mitchell was teasing Kirk for being so studious whereas the rest of the cadets in their circle were much less so.

Yes, there has always been the possible interpretation that when Mitchell says "In Lieutenant Kirk's class, you either think or sink", he isn't talking about Kirk the Instructor, but Kirk the Annoyingly Perfect Classmate Who Sets Impossible Standards...

That's pretty much how I rationalize it, too.

Well, we don't know such elementary facts as when he entered the Academy or when he graduated, but in "Court Martial" we do hear him describe Finney as fellow Academy student and then go on to state that "seven years later" he himself still only held Ensign rank...

Well, we know from WNMHGB and "Shore Leave" that Kirk was at the Academy 15 years before, so we at least have an approximate date.

And Kirk says "several years later" in "Court Martial", not "seven."

 

[J.T.B.]

Between the higher rank and and the "in his class" reference, I think it's pretty clear that the writer's intent was for Kirk to have been an instructor. Obviously Kirk was a midshipman at the Academy when he was tormented by upper classman Finnegan, and when he met Ben Finney whom he served with years later as an ensign. But there's no reason Mitchell couldn't have been close to Kirk's age but to have entered the academy at a later age.

 

[Timo]

Well, we know from WNMHGB and "Shore Leave" that Kirk was at the Academy 15 years before

To be sure, the "WNMHGB" reference is to Kirk knowing Mitchell; the two may have known each other before either entered the Academy. Kirk comes from a military family, and Mitchell might be another Starfleet brat, therefore known to little Jimmy.

I'd forgotten about the second fifteen-year reference from "Shore Leave", though - I thought there was only the reference to Ruth, but yes, Kirk says the same thing about Finnegan.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Well, we know from WNMHGB and "Shore Leave" that Kirk was at the Academy 15 years before

To be sure, the "WNMHGB" reference is to Kirk knowing Mitchell; the two may have known each other before either entered the Academy. Kirk comes from a military family, and Mitchell might be another Starfleet brat, therefore known to little Jimmy.

True. But Mitchell was a Lieutenant Commander, yes? I'd think he'd have for be in Starfleet for a decade or so to achieve that rank (Yes, I know. Star Trek '09. Let's all just accept that that was an unusual situation & leave it at that, okay? )

 

[Timo]

I'd love to agree, but we have this in-your-face graphic that shows that Mitchell already held Lieutenant Commander rank when tested for PSI tendencies at age 23.

Trying to squeeze lemonade out of that is a bit difficult, but I think there's less harm in declaring Mitchell a prodigy than in deciding that those must be alien years... Heck, it would make sense for Mitchell to use his psychic edge to get ahead in the rank game!

There's also the leeway that we do not know the rules governing entry age for humans. Picard was suggested to have applied at 17, admitted at 18 - but Wesley applied at 15 already, and Kirk in one timeline got in at 25-26. Perhaps Mitchell had found his calling earlier on?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I'd love to agree, but we have this in-your-face graphic that shows that Mitchell already held Lieutenant Commander rank when tested for PSI tendencies at age 23.

Is a graphic really "in your face" when you have to pause to discern what it says, though?

 

[Ithekro]

Or he was a survivor of a disaster that got promoted for either heroics, or because he was one of the few left onboard (like what happened to USS Farragut).

Come to think of it, what record does Kirk have to get him promoted to Captain at a relatively young age?

 

[Nerys Myk]

I'd love to agree, but we have this in-your-face graphic that shows that Mitchell already held Lieutenant Commander rank when tested for PSI tendencies at age 23.

Is a graphic really "in your face" when you have to pause to discern what it says, though?

Sloppy communication between the writers and the art department.

 

[Timo]

Come to think of it, what record does Kirk have to get him promoted to Captain at a relatively young age?

Actual quoted heroics are few: he survived Farragut, but no further "achievement" was mentioned in connection with this.

Oh, he probably saved dozens of lives left and right, but is modest about it. The only life-saving incident mentioned is the one where Gary Mitchell saved Kirk from some poison darts...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Lance]

See, little continuity things like this are the reason why pilot episodes are sometimes deliberately not broadcast as part of the series' run.

There's a case to be made that TOS undergoes something of a soft reboot between the events of WNMHGB and the events of the series proper. To be sure, Kirk and Spock carry over, but neither is exactly the same character as in the pilot episode. It remains for us as fans to reconcile these contradictions fifty years later.

 

[Karzak]

^^ +1

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I thought it was kind of clever when Peter David had the events of WNMHGB take place in an alternate universe in one of his Q novels. It was a nice, simple explanation for all the small variances we saw.

And yes, it's very common for TV shows to make major changes when they go from pilot to series. I have a DVD set of the first season of Bosom Buddies. In the pilot episode, Buffy and Hildegard were supposed to be each other's sisters. For the series itself, they changed it to each one being the sister of Kip and Henry. The set for the apartment is completely different, too.

 

[doubleohfive]

I thought it was kind of clever when Peter David had the events of WNMHGB take place in an alternate universe in one of his Q novels. It was a nice, simple explanation for all the small variances we saw.

Q-Squared. One of his best, if not the best, and absolutely my favorite of the Trek novels!

And yes, it's very common for TV shows to make major changes when they go from pilot to series.

Absolutely. The actress playing Willow was re-cast when Buffy The Vampire Slayer went to series.

Coach was written out of "New Girl" when Damon Wayans Jr. got another job before the show went to series. (Obviously, he came back.)

Jane The Virgin featured one actress playing the character of Rose in its pilot before recasting Bridget Regan in the role when the show was picked up to series.

Similarly, Lisa Kudrow was cast as Roz Doyle on Frasier before being replaced by Peri Gilpin, though I don't know if they finished the pilot before that happened.

Another example: "Jenna Maroney" was played by Rachel Dratch in the original pilot of 30 Rock before NBC recast the role with Jane Krakowski.

The pilot script for Breaking Bad was set in Riverside County, California before tax incentives and other factors led the production to set up and shoot in Albequerque, New Mexico.

There are tons of other examples (and I might have misremembered some of these, it's been a while) but it does happen.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Similarly, Lisa Kudrow was cast as Roz Doyle on Frasier before being replaced by Peri Gilpin, though I don't know if they finished the pilot before that happened..

They didn't. Kudrow was fired a couple of days into rehearsals. But she bounced back pretty quickly - she got cast in Friends the same fall season that Frasier debuted.

 

[doubleohfive]

Similarly, Lisa Kudrow was cast as Roz Doyle on Frasier before being replaced by Peri Gilpin, though I don't know if they finished the pilot before that happened..

They didn't. Kudrow was fired a couple of days into rehearsals. But she bounced back pretty quickly - she got cast in Friends the same fall season that Frasier debuted.

I figured that would be the one I misremembered. Thanks for clarifying Though I'm pretty sure Frasier premiered in 1993, while Friends premiered in 1994. Both series ended in 2004 however, less than a week apart.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Though I'm pretty sure Frasier premiered in 1993, while Friends premiered in 1994. Both series ended in 2004 however, less than a week apart.

You're right. I was misremembering that bit. I knew that Cheers ended when I was in college and Friends definitely premiered during the first fall I was in grad school, so I was getting mixed up.

But still, that's a pretty good bounce back. Sherry Stringfield had a similar thing happen to her after she left the first season of NYPD Blue - her next series was ER in 1994.

 

[doubleohfive]

Yep. Sometimes, there are some people who it just plain works out extremely well for. *shakes fist*